Madison Scouts 2023

[scout9193]

47 minutes ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

Are we really gonna just gloss over the toxic and vitriolic reaction of a lot of the alumni over the co-ed decision? That was also around the time the alumni page was taken down, and given some of the absolute nonsense I had seen, seems like the right move to me.

I can only speak for myself in response.  Admittedly, I was and am far removed from the day to day/week to week contact with those involved in the decision; however, three points seem to resonate with me. Moreover, as an alumnus I didn't feel like my voice was acknowledged or heard.    :

1.  Rightly or wrongly it felt like a fait accompli.  One day I get a request asking for our thoughts. I said in my original post I thought this was in the form of an email but as I think things through, it may have been a post on the alumni board with an email address to send our thoughts to.  I remember distinctly staying after work to draft what I believed to be a thoughtful response.  I received nothing in return- not even an automatic response indicating my email had been received.  I hear nothing further even when I speak/correspond with fellow alumni closer to Madison geographically and/or those actively speaking with the direct decision makers.  I took that to mean the issue had been tabled if not dismissed based on what the board et al received in the way of feedback.  The next inkling I received was a public announcement that I'm quite confident I either read on FaceBook (as I still had an account at the time) or perhaps even here.  I specifically remember seeing it on a Saturday morning in June.  

2.  It felt like the decision was made from a point of weakness-competitive and organizational.  The talent level of the corps appears to have steadily declined over the last decade, esp. in the guard.  To my "eyes" it came across as a trying to address/correct a symptom (decreased talent, placement) via broadening the talent pool by introducing females. Dare I say throwing 80 years of history out for the sake of competitive expediency.  To me, the issues seemed much deeper (ie. markedly increased alumni apathy/dissatisfaction/feeling ignored or marginalized leading to untapped support -financial & otherwise) to poor/outdated/half baked design and staff decisions to rumblings of a power hungry corps director surrounding himself with yes men.  There's more but I'll leave that off this post.

3.  At the time and especially now I looked at the other all-male organization and have to question what is it they did/do/will do in the future to maintain their unique traditions & history.  I'm not privy to their comings and goings so perhaps there are discussions about adding females.  I do see where, when they were starting to slide competitively around this same window of time, they appear to have made good decisions to get back on the path to relevancy (not that they were irrelevant but by their standards) without foregoing several decades of tradition (75 years now?)

I'm a charter member of a coed drumcorps now very successful. I'm also a founding father of a fraternity chapter and a former United States Marine.  Of all the experiences I had that helped shaped me to be a man and ultimately father of two little girls and head of a family I look at my time spent with Madison as a key foundation.  I can't help but feel like this tradition of being all-male (while not necessarily BETTER but certainly unique to young men who shared hardships as well as good times)was deemed by certain individuals as outdated or worse yet, toxic.  Rightly or wrongly, I feel the lessons taught to me and instilled in me by men I looked up to were thrown away by a certain few for competitive expediency and  b/c of their own personal "moral" justifications.  I humbly offer that I may not be alone in this.  

Respectfully,

CM

[Gantang]

1 hour ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

2023 seems to be on the verge of getting back into finals, all captions seem stronger than previous years.
 

They're currently 16th in raw scores. They could move up one spot because of SCV, but I don't think Finals are going to be a consideration. 

[MadScout80]

1 hour ago, rmurrey74 said:

That's great that Jim handled your criticism in that way, but if you reached out to him with those comments questioning his team's level of design and inhibiting competitive success, how many other alumni were doing the same thing?   That's kind of the point. 

 

The book "A Complaint is a Gift" introduced the revolutionary notion that customer complaints are not annoyances to be dodged, denied or buried, but are instead valuable pieces of feedback that can be used to improve an organization's products and services.

[MGCpimpOtimp]

18 minutes ago, Gantang said:

They're currently 16th in raw scores. They could move up one spot because of SCV, but I don't think Finals are going to be a consideration. 

They're 15th, but regardless, the current difference between 12th and 16th is like a point and a half. MUCH MUCH crazier things have happened. That whole neighborhood is gonna have lots of movement. Not saying they'll make finals, but they'll be much closer this year than last year.

[kdaddy]

58 minutes ago, MM2006 said:

Madison Scouts 

2009 15th 

2010 10th 

 

I would argue there's more to it than that. Like this:

2005 6th
2006 9th
2007 15th 
2008 12th
2009 15th
2010 10th

I see 2010 as a corps that was hovering around bottom six, cleaned house after 2006 and fell off the map, recovered somewhat, then dropped another stinker. Then they brought in competence to get them back to the bottom six. So yes, on paper, there was a rise from 15 to 10. 

Whereas today, we have:

2016 13th
2017 12th
2018 16th
2019 17th
2020, 2021 global pandemic
2022 15th

This isn't me arguing that they're on the right track. I'm just arguing that the corps was in a different position in 2010, and the conditions aren't the same.

[Vuitton]

@scout9193 Yes, I remember. It was an email. I remember responding to it, in support of going co-ed, and hearing nothing back myself. Not even a thank you for participating.

I do agree this was a move by a desperate leadership trying to increase their talent pool. I'm for inclusivity and diversity, so ultimately I supported the decision. But, I'm not naïve enough to not know the true reason behind the decision. It was about increasing the talent pool. I wish they would have just said that was the overriding reason. To me, it was a reactive decision on the part of the administration to try and up the level of talent rather than about inclusivity. I respect the decision to be more inclusive, but I don't respect the hiding of the true meaning behind the decision. Had they just said, "Look, we are struggling with talent. We need better talent. We have to open our program up to non-males" I would have respected that. I just hate the smoke and mirrors. 

But, at the end of the day, I hope Madison will be better off as an inclusive corps.

[Vuitton]

23 minutes ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

They're 15th, but regardless, the current difference between 12th and 16th is like a point and a half. MUCH MUCH crazier things have happened. That whole neighborhood is gonna have lots of movement. Not saying they'll make finals, but they'll be much closer this year than last year.

The do not have the design to compete with Spirit of Atlanta, Blue Knights or Crossmen. Execution is keeping them above Crossmen now. If Crossmen can execute their program as good as or better than Madison, they will pass them. I haven't watched The Academy yet, so I cannot comment on that.

I will be surprised if we don't know for certain Madison is out by quarterfinals. 

[Vuitton]

18 minutes ago, kdaddy said:

I would argue there's more to it than that. Like this:

2005 6th
2006 9th
2007 15th 
2008 12th
2009 15th
2010 10th

I see 2010 as a corps that was hovering around bottom six, cleaned house after 2006 and fell off the map, recovered somewhat, then dropped another stinker. Then they brought in competence to get them back to the bottom six. So yes, on paper, there was a rise from 15 to 10. 

Whereas today, we have:

2016 13th
2017 12th
2018 16th
2019 17th
2020, 2021 global pandemic
2022 15th

This isn't me arguing that they're on the right track. I'm just arguing that the corps was in a different position in 2010, and the conditions aren't the same.

It's the track record from 2016 to today that is most important. As I said before, 2015 was a Mason hangover. Once he was out, everything went downhill and has remained there. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, we have seen from this design team that indicates and upward trend is even possible.

That rise to 10th in 2010 was the result of Jim Mason and Jim knowing what was doing. Since then, well, the numbers speak for themselves.

[madisonsmiley]

35 minutes ago, MadScout80 said:

 

The book "A Complaint is a Gift" introduced the revolutionary notion that customer complaints are not annoyances to be dodged, denied or buried, but are instead valuable pieces of feedback that can be used to improve an organization's products and services.

This is a great book! 

@rmurrey74 What's funny about this? 

[Gantang]

1 hour ago, MGCpimpOtimp said:

They're 15th, 

Yep. My Excel sheet left out the number 7. You are right and I was wrong!