Off Season Rambling

[Jeff Ream]

10 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

At least it isn't a mylar vs kevlar debate Jeff. Been through that whirlwind before. 

pros and cons for each. i'm not opposed to either

[Weaklefthand4ever]

16 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

I only see one drum per drummer/bugler.  Where are the double snare drums?

Ahhhh. So by "double snares" I mean that they have a set of snares for the top head and the bottom head. This is done with pipe drums and gives them that unique sound. They're absolutely WONDERFUL to play. Resonators were some of my favorite Premier drums as it had actually two shells (a standard shell and then a thinner 3 ply shell held in by tension on the inside.) It was a bit heavier than most drums but pre-free floater, it was a nice feel and sound. Of note, SCV used a version in 1985 (and in my fav color - champagne sparkle.) Example below (although I would think the Royal Guard uses a 10 or 12 lug version.)

[IllianaLancerContra]

1 hour ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Ahhhh. So by "double snares" I mean that they have a set of snares for the top head and the bottom head. This is done with pipe drums and gives them that unique sound. They're absolutely WONDERFUL to play. Resonators were some of my favorite Premier drums as it had actually two shells (a standard shell and then a thinner 3 ply shell held in by tension on the inside.) It was a bit heavier than most drums but pre-free floater, it was a nice feel and sound. Of note, SCV used a version in 1985 (and in my fav color - champagne sparkle.) Example below (although I would think the Royal Guard uses a 10 or 12 lug version.)

Thanks.
I take it ‘free-floater’ doesn’t involve levitation. 😎

[Weaklefthand4ever]

7 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Thanks.
I take it ‘free-floater’ doesn’t involve levitation. 😎

Oooooo...good question. It kinda, sorta does LOL. The shell "floats" inside of a "cage." Essentially, there are two support rings where the lugs are connected to the ring itself rather than the shell. Reinforcement rings (usually metal) are fitted to the top of the shell. The whole idea is higher tension (metal being stronger than wood) with no hardware penetrating the shell and interfering with vibration. Premier invented it first and everyone else followed. It certainly did eliminate shell failure like we used to see in the 1980's. Example below:

[IllianaLancerContra]

24 minutes ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Oooooo...good question. It kinda, sorta does LOL. The shell "floats" inside of a "cage." Essentially, there are two support rings where the lugs are connected to the ring itself rather than the shell. Reinforcement rings (usually metal) are fitted to the top of the shell. The whole idea is higher tension (metal being stronger than wood) with no hardware penetrating the shell and interfering with vibration. Premier invented it first and everyone else followed. It certainly did eliminate shell failure like we used to see in the 1980's. Example below:

Thanks. About time we had a discussion on what type of drum is better vs another rehash over brass.  

[Brian Tuma]

31 minutes ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Oooooo...good question. It kinda, sorta does LOL. The shell "floats" inside of a "cage." Essentially, there are two support rings where the lugs are connected to the ring itself rather than the shell. Reinforcement rings (usually metal) are fitted to the top of the shell. The whole idea is higher tension (metal being stronger than wood) with no hardware penetrating the shell and interfering with vibration. Premier invented it first and everyone else followed. It certainly did eliminate shell failure like we used to see in the 1980's. Example below:

Thanks, I wasn’t aware of the double snare wire. Has this hardware/shell design resulted in the “drier” (for lack of better term) sound we mostly hear today? So many lines played with too much tension but it seems to me to have softened the last couple years imo. I don’t know all the jargon as I’m not a drummer so I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly. Lines have gone from that “loose” sound of early DCI to the “Formica countertop” sound but seem to be finding a happy medium. I particularly recall Blue Stars having a different snare sound for a couple years maybe back in the early 2010s? It came off to me as a more relaxed sound. Help educate a non-drummer! Lol

[Weaklefthand4ever]

5 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Thanks. About time we had a discussion on what type of drum is better vs another rehash over brass.  

See I love brass discussions because I know so very little about the inner working of brass instrumentation. It has always fascinated me to hear about the differences between single valve and rotor, 2 valves, 3 valves. Different tonalities, colors etc. It's fascinating. Brass to me is like a human voice in it's ability to be flexible. Drums....meh....LOL. You can milk out some different tones with construction (metal vs wood, staving vs plys, etc) but a drum is going to pretty much sound like a drum at the end of the day.  

[Weaklefthand4ever]

1 hour ago, Brian Tuma said:

Thanks, I wasn’t aware of the double snare wire. Has this hardware/shell design resulted in the “drier” (for lack of better term) sound we mostly hear today? So many lines played with too much tension but it seems to me to have softened the last couple years imo. I don’t know all the jargon as I’m not a drummer so I hope my thoughts are coming across clearly. Lines have gone from that “loose” sound of early DCI to the “Formica countertop” sound but seem to be finding a happy medium. I particularly recall Blue Stars having a different snare sound for a couple years maybe back in the early 2010s? It came off to me as a more relaxed sound. Help educate a non-drummer! Lol

Another excellent question! So there are a few different approaches. The floating shell and kevlar heads certainly does make for a drier sound. Depending on the thickness of the kevar and the coating, etc, you can significantly change the tone of the drum. (example: Remo Black Max is thicker and has a heavier coating resulting in a much darker tone than a Remo White Max.) You can also change the sound by using metal snare wires (aviator cables) compared to artificial gut and changing the tension of those snares at the snare strainer.

Shell / hardware design simply allowed for higher tensions. Back in the 80's, we double rimmed everything (see image above) and cranked the top head until the drum screamed. Once kevlar became a "thing" again around 1990ish, we started collapsing shells like crazy. The impact of the head / free floating design is what gives the drums now that less resonant, drier sound that you are referring to. Mylar heads and lower tensions give a more open, fat sound. Also, you can put a kevlar or hybrid head on the snare side of the drum and make it sound even more like you're playing on a table top. 

I think the tuning is getting better, and honestly, I think having them cranked too far down not only chokes the sound but also is harder to keep in check wise from player to player (I am unsure about judging.) Some drums are easy to tune (Pearl) and we've gone away from over tuning as much. I compare it to 1980's hairstyles. We used to "Tease it to Jesus" and now it's a bit more toned down. Higher tensions are also a lot harder on the hands for young drummers IMHO

Edited October 23, 2022 by Weaklefthand4ever

[jwillis35]

In terms of the brass discussion I loved the sound of a good G line and I love the sound of a good Bb/F line. I would definitely pay good money for a ticket or two to see a drum corps perform on a good set of G bugles (not named the U.S. Marine Drum & Bugle Corps). But that doesn't mean I would want the activity to go back to all Gs, not unless we could guarantee quality of build. 

There were a few things that pushed DCI and the corps to move to the Bb/F instruments. The quality of build argument is part of it, but the real issue was that most high school and college bands were also playing on Bb/F brass. This meant factories were setup to produce this instrumentation on a larger scale. To produce the G bugles they had to shift resources, use different measurements, designs and tools that required a team that could specialize. Part of their factory had to be customized for such specifications. Kanstul made quality Gs toward the end that were used by the Marines and others, but that was a small niche of their business and their overall setup. In the end it was not practical or financially as successful for them or anyone else when most of their business was with concert instruments and marching brass for HS and College band. So the change for DCI was as much about making it easier on the manufacturers in order to offer more choice for the drum corps and to allow for more entry into customizing marching instruments that could be used by drum corps. Bb/F marching brass is better constructed (in some cases but not all) partly because there is more competition and more money. It's a much broader industry.

If the market had been such that G Bugles were in high demand with colleges and high school bands and not just drum corps then G Bugle design and quality would have been much higher. Because they were not meant that drum corps would only purchase a new set once every 5 to 10 years (if not more) and fill in the gaps with used horns from other corps. There was no market to resell these instruments to high schools or colleges. The manufacturers could only produce so many per year, since it was a niche business, and therefore even if the quality was decent to good when the horns were new the corps had to use those horns for a long time because the output of the manufacturer was slow. This meant many corps were playing on used, dented, and severely damaged instruments. Garfield in the early to late 80s played on some really banged up G bugles, some of which they got from the Bridgemen and others. 

So in the end the move to Bb/F was necessary due to the sheer number of manufacturers making those horns and the large business model already in place. This also made the transition from H.S./College bands to drum corps easier for the brass players (unless you were woodwind, and there are plenty of them as well). But even the woodwind players can easily practice on instruments owned by their schools and begin their journey to understanding Bb/F brass.

Edited October 25, 2022 by jwillis35

[Jeff Ream]

12 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

Another excellent question! So there are a few different approaches. The floating shell and kevlar heads certainly does make for a drier sound. Depending on the thickness of the kevar and the coating, etc, you can significantly change the tone of the drum. (example: Remo Black Max is thicker and has a heavier coating resulting in a much darker tone than a Remo White Max.) You can also change the sound by using metal snare wires (aviator cables) compared to artificial gut and changing the tension of those snares at the snare strainer.

Shell / hardware design simply allowed for higher tensions. Back in the 80's, we double rimmed everything (see image above) and cranked the top head until the drum screamed. Once kevlar became a "thing" again around 1990ish, we started collapsing shells like crazy. The impact of the head / free floating design is what gives the drums now that less resonant, drier sound that you are referring to. Mylar heads and lower tensions give a more open, fat sound. Also, you can put a kevlar or hybrid head on the snare side of the drum and make it sound even more like you're playing on a table top. 

I think the tuning is getting better, and honestly, I think having them cranked too far down not only chokes the sound but also is harder to keep in check wise from player to player (I am unsure about judging.) Some drums are easy to tune (Pearl) and we've gone away from over tuning as much. I compare it to 1980's hairstyles. We used to "Tease it to Jesus" and now it's a bit more toned down. Higher tensions are also a lot harder on the hands for young drummers IMHO

Stingray...the best reason to triple hoop the bottom