Madison Scouts 2024

[TenHut]

2 hours ago, Vuitton said:

You raise so many good points here.

I will add the first problem is design. A show can be well designed under any budget. Design is the heart of Madison's problems. I'm not expecting a championship caliber design, but a design that gives them a shot at placing 12th is paramount. I knew when I saw their 2023 preview show they were going to be sitting on based on design alone. It simply fell very short of all above them and a few below them. 

The second problem is us almuni. If the adminstration hadn't alienated us they would likely have a much bigger budget. Madison has a massive alumni that they can and should be tapping into. I'll tell you, if I suddenly won the lottery (which I wouldn't because I don't play) my money would go to Vanguard or a dream of ressurecting a folded corps, like the 27th Lancers, not Madison. They aren't getting a penny of my money.

The third problem is talent. The talent just doesn't stick around at Madison. They are a feeder corps. People can go on and on about how members don't care about placement, but they do. Members learn at Madison and move on to higher placing  corps to get the experience of succeeding in competiion and performing in more complex and challenging shows.

It's a simple fact that as long as the current leadership and board remains in place, Madison isn't going to have any success competitively. As soon as a member signs their contract they have given up any hope of making the top 12.

Well said & spot on. 

[fighterkit]

2 hours ago, Vuitton said:

I am not being fecitious here but I would really love your thoughts as to why you think they are on the right track. Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't see a drop in placement and a show design that isn't any better than previous designs as being on the right track. Furthermore, they have, IMO, fielded their weakest guard in history in 2023. 

There have been corps, throughout history, who have moved from 15th/16th into finals in one season, so it's not out of the realm of possiblity. I wouldn't care if they were 16th and had a great show design, because THAT would give me hope for their future, but based on the designs they have been putting out since 2015 I am hopeless.

Its not the 90's anymore where corps can finish 16th or 17th and make finals the next year. Corps have to have consistent staffing and member retention as well as a well designed show to break into the finals sphere. Madison breaking back into finals will not be a one year plan, or even a two year plan. You need to start planning for that years in advance, especially when you have been out of finals for a long time. 

I do agree that Madison has not put out good designs the last few years, frankly I have not liked a competitive show that Madison did since 2015. But I think that the ed staff they have right now in terms of drumline, visual, brass is phenomenal and the people that can get the Scouts back into finals. The last piece of the puzzle will be design and JRobb has been rumored to be out since the beginning of the 23 season. Once they get a good design I am confident that the talent is there to take them further up the rankings to where they want to be. Guard has always been a weak issue for Madison. Especially after the sheets changed and guard became its own caption. I think that the guard will continue to improve if given the right environment. It may be hard to see it when you are far removed from the activity, but I can say as someone who recently aged out. There is still a massive draw to be a part of THE Madison Scouts. Members want to go there and members want to be a Scout. That is an insanely powerful draw that younger members are still going towards. Just because they have started to move down the rankings doesn't mean that the members are not going there. I think that the issue has been design. Every member I have talked to that marched Scouts since 2015 have told me how much they love the environment there, how much they love being a Scout, and how they cannot wait to return. They have incredible member retention, which tells me that the kids are getting better under the staff and love their time there and are proud to be a Scout and continue to push others towards the same corps that they marched. 
I'm willing to hold my breath to see who the design team will be for 24, because the right one can be the final piece of the puzzle that Scouts need to get back into finals. 

 

2 hours ago, Vuitton said:

This whole "toxic alumni" line was created by those who support and pander to Chris K. Simple as.

I disagree. I have seen the posts y'all make in the alum groups and alum groups adjacent. Toxic is the best word to use for the a lot of the alum. You can disguise it how you want, but the things that the alum say about the current corps and membership is frankly toxic. They read them and they spread them to others to complain. You can pretend all you want that you (as in the alum) are not targeting the members but they sure as hell read it that way and take it that way. 
 

I have very little stake in the Scouts. Other than dating a Scout I can only really talk as a long time fan. But I would love to see them back in the top 12. 

[madisonsmiley]

1 hour ago, fighterkit said:

They have incredible member retention.

What is the Scouts' member retention rate and how does it compare to other DCI corps? How many of the Scouts' members move on to another corps each year and how does that compare to other DCI corps? 

[fighterkit]

48 minutes ago, madisonsmiley said:

What is the Scouts' member retention rate and how does it compare to other DCI corps? How many of the Scouts' members move on to another corps each year and how does that compare to other DCI corps? 

From what I know. The majority of members in 21 came back for 22 and same with 22 to 23. Very few have left the Scouts, but I cannot give exact numbers. From what I know though. Their member retention is very good for a nonfinalist. Most of the non finalists don't stay for more than a year or two. 

[C.Holland]

19 hours ago, fighterkit said:

From what I know. The majority of members in 21 came back for 22 and same with 22 to 23. Very few have left the Scouts, but I cannot give exact numbers. From what I know though. Their member retention is very good for a nonfinalist. Most of the non finalists don't stay for more than a year or two. 

in this "more expensive than a used car" era of DCI... even finalist corps get lots of turnover simply because members get much fewer seasons now due to costs, than 15-20, and certainly less than 20+ years ago.  anyone who can keep 50% or better is doing things correctly in terms of member care and feeding.

[Vuitton]

21 hours ago, fighterkit said:

I disagree. I have seen the posts y'all make in the alum groups and alum groups adjacent. Toxic is the best word to use for the a lot of the alum. You can disguise it how you want, but the things that the alum say about the current corps and membership is frankly toxic. They read them and they spread them to others to complain. You can pretend all you want that you (as in the alum) are not targeting the members but they sure as hell read it that way and take it that way. 
 

I have very little stake in the Scouts. Other than dating a Scout I can only really talk as a long time fan. But I would love to see them back in the top 12. 

How can you even say this? As someone who never marched in Madison and is fairly young (based on your signature) you have probably seen things written by less than 0.1% of the alumni. No one is targeting the members - none of this is their doing. They are doing the best they can with the product they are given. The loudest voices are usually the angry ones. I'm sorry, but you have no basis for this comment. 

The most vulnerable corps to fall out of finals are the corps in the 10-12 range, typically. It is possible, although I agree unlikely, that most corps would rise fast enough to go from 16th to 12th. It's not the placement, it's the design and if you start out with a design that has no shot at 12th then you have lost already.

[MM2006]

19 hours ago, fighterkit said:

From what I know. The majority of members in 21 came back for 22 and same with 22 to 23. Very few have left the Scouts, but I cannot give exact numbers. From what I know though. Their member retention is very good for a nonfinalist. Most of the non finalists don't stay for more than a year or two. 

There were at least 10-20 who fed into other corps. Madison is a feeder corps. 6 alone went to blue stars. 

[fighterkit]

3 minutes ago, Vuitton said:

How can you even say this? As someone who never marched in Madison and is fairly young (based on your signature) you have probably seen things written by less than 0.1% of the alumni. No one is targeting the members - none of this is their doing. They are doing the best they can with the product they are given. The loudest voices are usually the angry ones. I'm sorry, but you have no basis for this comment. 

The most vulnerable corps to fall out of finals are the corps in the 10-12 range, typically. It is possible, although I agree unlikely, that most corps would rise fast enough to go from 16th to 12th. It's not the placement, it's the design and if you start out with a design that has no shot at 12th then you have lost already.

I understand the frustration with hearing comments like this. 
Sure I am young, but I can only speak for what is now. The Madison threads are notoriously toxic. The membership is embarrassed by what the alum post and say about the corps. You claim continuously that no one is targeting the membership. And yet that is not what they feel and not what they express. The members talk a lot about how the alumni is not on their side and constantly tear down the organization. I do have basis because of how many Madison threads that devolve into toxicity. How many posts on the alum page I read with my partner who marched Scouts and how they are deeply upset by what y'all say. How other members are upset. 

All I will say is that both orgs I marched are infinitely more supportive than the Madison alum. One is competitively successful, and the other is slipping every year. But the alum have not devolved anywhere close to what I see in the Madison thread every single year. 

I can tell that I am not wanted in this space so I will be leaving this thread and let you argue and tear each other apart. 
 

[Vuitton]

3 hours ago, fighterkit said:

I understand the frustration with hearing comments like this. 
Sure I am young, but I can only speak for what is now. The Madison threads are notoriously toxic. The membership is embarrassed by what the alum post and say about the corps. You claim continuously that no one is targeting the membership. And yet that is not what they feel and not what they express. The members talk a lot about how the alumni is not on their side and constantly tear down the organization. I do have basis because of how many Madison threads that devolve into toxicity. How many posts on the alum page I read with my partner who marched Scouts and how they are deeply upset by what y'all say. How other members are upset. 

All I will say is that both orgs I marched are infinitely more supportive than the Madison alum. One is competitively successful, and the other is slipping every year. But the alum have not devolved anywhere close to what I see in the Madison thread every single year. 

I can tell that I am not wanted in this space so I will be leaving this thread and let you argue and tear each other apart. 
 

Well, you are wanted and welcome, for one, and I don't see anyone tearing anyone apart.

What you read on here is the smallest representation of a group of people you could possibly get. We are frustrated with the leadership and the lack of action on the part of the board. That's it. The members are tougher than you think, believe me. If they can't handle comments on here, then they shouldn't read them. Simple as. I don't get involved in political discussions anywhere because it fires me up, upsets me, and ruins my day. We can't be censored for fear of upsetting the members. NO ONE has targeted them. We understand they are doing the absolute best with the product they are given.

[C.Holland]

3 hours ago, MM2006 said:

There were at least 10-20 who fed into other corps. Madison is a feeder corps. 6 alone went to blue stars. 

you should check the others retention rates.  if you only lose 20 to another corps that's a good year.  My students who marched Phantom, Bloo, BAC, Colts, Xmen, Crown, Cadets, all went to other places the next season. Simply because they felt as they could only afford another season, why not try to see what the grass is over there?   They wanted the different tour experience and the different staff experience. (usually from the caption head name) Most of those who went to Spartans stayed at least 2 seasons if they could.  Though many aged out there. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by C.Holland