Vuitton Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 11 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: given Spirit was almost 100% rookies, that they only fell 2 spots was amazing! Exactly and that's due to staffing and design - something Vanguard has in spades. Talent is, of course, important, but not nearly as important as design and staff. If you have the right design and staff that alone will take you far. I'm pretty sure in '88 our talent level didn't match Vanguard, Garfield, Blue Devils, and perhaps Cavies and Regiment as well, but a great staff and design took us all the way to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vuitton Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 12 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said: I suppose it depends how you define success & failure. The kids are have fun & getting fed. No stories of abuse. Perhaps that is how success is currently defined in DCI? Well it is a compettive activity. I mean, competitive success feels good. Madison is a feeder corps now. Top talent just doesn't go there. They go there to learn the basics and then move on to a more successful corps. You can have fun, get fed, and win. I would never march Madison if I was marching today. I didn't care so much about winning when I was in Madison (really just beating Star, Cavies and Regiment) were what mattered, but in 1989 it basically just felt like we lost. We finished the worst we could possibly finish. It wasn't a good feeling. It's not going to get better until Madison starts designing shows better. It's that simple. If the come out in 2023 with a wonderful design and finish 16th I will be happy and consider the season a success, because they'll be able to build on that. I"m not opitmistic though. If you failed at your job like CK has, you would have been fired years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 9 hours ago, Vuitton said: Well it is a compettive activity. I mean, competitive success feels good. Madison is a feeder corps now. Top talent just doesn't go there. They go there to learn the basics and then move on to a more successful corps. You can have fun, get fed, and win. I would never march Madison if I was marching today. I didn't care so much about winning when I was in Madison (really just beating Star, Cavies and Regiment) were what mattered, but in 1989 it basically just felt like we lost. We finished the worst we could possibly finish. It wasn't a good feeling. It's not going to get better until Madison starts designing shows better. It's that simple. If the come out in 2023 with a wonderful design and finish 16th I will be happy and consider the season a success, because they'll be able to build on that. I"m not opitmistic though. If you failed at your job like CK has, you would have been fired years ago. People throw the word "talent" around too much. With the amount of practice for the length of shows today should not be a big ticket issue. It's called show design and being able to AND willing to teach. Madison should be looking at being Madison again. Kind of reminds my of the movie "Moneyball". If you are trying to win by trying to be the Blue Devils you have already lost. Be Madison. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KVG_DC Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 "Talent" v "Teachable" has always been part of youth/college activities though. Right down to college sports. Do you pick the players who already have the skills that exhibit greatness or do you want players who can learn grow to achieve greatness? And it's often not an either/or choice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 11 hours ago, Vuitton said: Well it is a compettive activity. I mean, competitive success feels good. Madison is a feeder corps now. Top talent just doesn't go there. They go there to learn the basics and then move on to a more successful corps. You can have fun, get fed, and win. I would never march Madison if I was marching today. I didn't care so much about winning when I was in Madison (really just beating Star, Cavies and Regiment) were what mattered, but in 1989 it basically just felt like we lost. We finished the worst we could possibly finish. It wasn't a good feeling. It's not going to get better until Madison starts designing shows better. It's that simple. If the come out in 2023 with a wonderful design and finish 16th I will be happy and consider the season a success, because they'll be able to build on that. I"m not opitmistic though. If you failed at your job like CK has, you would have been fired years ago. To tie this back to their 2024 rep- ‘….. and the show CK gives you, doesn’t score anything at all…’ ($0.02 to Grace Slick) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Anova Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 The Madison Scouts are clearly in a transition stage. It took a lot of " you know whats " to go from a Male Identified Drum Corps for 80 years to a Co- ed inclusive Drum Corps in 2018. It divided the Alum base at a time when they were already struggling a bit on the competition field. It could have folded the Corps. But it didnt. Their transition from a Male ID'd Drum Corps to a Co-ed inclusive Drum Corps took place just a short time before Covid too its toll on Corps too. They came through that stage and at a time when DCI was also losing, either temporarily, or permanently, 2 Founding Member, Charter Drum Corps in DCI. But the Madison Scouts are still with us. They still produce entertaining shows for many in the audience as they go forth in their rebranding. I applaud the organization for the boldness and courage it took to do what they did knowing it would not be greeted with universal acceptance when announced. But has its fundamental mission it has had for over 80 years changed ? I don't think so. It still serves youth well to help make them strong, self confident individuals. The placement improvements might take some time. They can figure that out in 2024 and in the coming years. They'll get there. It would be helpful if some of the older Madison Scouts alums would love their current Corps as much as many of the current Madison Scouts love them. But thats up to them I suppose. In any event, I wish the Madison Scouts the very best this summer and beyond. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 This story resonates with me, having once taught a corps which, despite its proud history, was on the ropes. Going "co-ed" was a sacrilegious abomination to many of the alumni, as was their change in creative direction. They persevered nonetheless, and survived. Eventually, with the help of subsequent leaders, they achieved several national championships, and the previously dis-affected alums...well, I leave it to the reader to complete that thought. So may it be for the Scouts. It's not the talent, or even the cleverness of the staff (although a good instructor can teach a tree how to perform if it shows up at rehearsals); the only real sine qua non is determination. There is much good will in the Drum Corps community for the Madison Scouts, and their eventual re-emergence as a major competitor would engender much rejoicing throughout the realm. This may very well come to pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank4now Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 12/6/2023 at 4:59 PM, bugleboy85 said: The video is hideous.....looks like my 9 year old made it on my old windows 95 computer. Tough crowd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicteacher Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 3 hours ago, frank4now said: Tough crowd Iron Lips is here spot-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vuitton Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 9 hours ago, Boss Anova said: The Madison Scouts are clearly in a transition stage. It took a lot of " you know whats " to go from a Male Identified Drum Corps for 80 years to a Co- ed inclusive Drum Corps in 2018. It divided the Alum base at a time when they were already struggling a bit on the competition field. It could have folded the Corps. But it didnt. Their transition from a Male ID'd Drum Corps to a Co-ed inclusive Drum Corps took place just a short time before Covid too its toll on Corps too. They came through that stage and at a time when DCI was also losing, either temporarily, or permanently, 2 Founding Member, Charter Drum Corps in DCI. But the Madison Scouts are still with us. They still produce entertaining shows for many in the audience as they go forth in their rebranding. I applaud the organization for the boldness and courage it took to do what they did knowing it would not be greeted with universal acceptance when announced. But has its fundamental mission it has had for over 80 years changed ? I don't think so. It still serves youth well to help make them strong, self confident individuals. The placement improvements might take some time. They can figure that out in 2024 and in the coming years. They'll get there. It would be helpful if some of the older Madison Scouts alums would love their current Corps as much as many of the current Madison Scouts love them. But thats up to them I suppose. In any event, I wish the Madison Scouts the very best this summer and beyond. While, as an alumni, I applaud and support gender inclusion, I don't believe for one second they did it to be inclusive. They did it because they needed to be able to tap into more of the talent pool. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be real about it. It was just another deserpate and failed attempt by a desperate and failed adminstration to improve on placement. But, while the move perhaps expanded the talent pool for them, nothing has improved from a design perspective. Ok - perhaps musically. But the overall designs have given the corps no hope of making finals from the moment they were written down. I support the membership. I do not support the adminstration. When do you draw the line? When has there been any placement improvement, a substaintial one? Never. Mason left them in good standing when he left and that showed in the 2015 show. Since then, there have been no substantial improvements in placement, there hasn't been one good design, and there has been constant deseparte shifting to try and make something stick, and nothing has sticked. Frankly, they have also failed at being entertaining. While I don't want them to rehash old Madison tunes or shows (they don't have to) they can still be entertaining, and they aren't really. Not compared to how Madison used to be. One of the fan favorites year in and year out, for decades. That's gone now. It's all gone now. It's so disappointing. Haven't beaten Blue Devils at finals since 1988. Haven't beaten Blue Devils at all since 1991. Haven't beaten Cadets at finals since 1988. Haven't beaten Cadets at all since 1995. Haven't beaten Vanguard, Crown, Regiment or Bluecoats since 2005. Haven't beaten Regiment at finals since 1999. None of these corps view Madison as a rival. How is this acceptable to anyone? Edited February 22 by Vuitton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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