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Any time I see posts in these threads about the benefits of amplification because now the pit can play with "correct concert technique", I have to scratch my head a little. Is anyone under the illusion that anyone else in the corps is playing with "correct concert technique"? When the horns are playing at triple-blastissimo, when I'm watching the snare drummers start a stroke with the butt-end of the stick two inches above the brim of their shakos--none of that smacks of "correct concert technique" to me. That doesn't bother me, though, as I'm not watching an indoor concert, I'm watching an outdoor marching ensemble. I would expect the technique to be different, the equipment to be different, darn near everything to be different, because the venue and the activity are different. Does anyone think that a modern marching snare has anywhere near the sound quality of a good concert snare? To me they sound atrocious--on their own--but perfectly suited to the situation they were designed for. I guess I never minded the "bang away" pits from back in the day, just like I never minded loud, occasionally raucous hornlines or stick-above-your-head drumline closers--I assumed those things were done for the purpose of producing an effective, outdoor, fill-up-the-stadium sound called drum and bugle corps.

Drum Corps International: The First Decade 1972-1981 This is a review I originally wrote for Drum Corps World that is now available on dci.org with permission of Steve Vickers. I am not exaggerating one bit when I say that this book is an unbelievable read that will continually amaze you. I couldn't believe how much I personally didn't know about the first ten years of DCI's existence. Buy it for Christmas, buy it for any holiday you celebrate, buy it for yourself and/or buy it for others...but just BUY IT. Really, this is the most entertaining and information book I've read in some time, because it not only filled in a lot of blank spots in my understanding of how DCI got off the ground, it's just plain fun to read about that and so much more. And in case anyone was wondering, I was not paid to write the review, (but I did get to keep the book). Please go to the dci.org link at the top of this post and check out the info at the bottom of the review. (It's available in a special bundle with Steve Vickers' new book of photographs from DCI's first 35 years.)

Maybe the Directors don't really give a crap if an audience shows up or not. This is pretty much a band festival as it is. You take away relatives and recent age-outs, and what do you have left? Not much. This is a small activity that's been driven smaller IMO, because its reach has narrowed to music majors almost exclusively. It is now a rather snobby "art," where we get into fights over the bore size of a G vs. a Bb instrument. Or the mallet technique of a grounded marimba. Nobody watches, face it. More people saw the Wyoming high school all star band at the Rose Parade than will see the "G8" over the next several years put together. So...while we're busy being all full of ourselves, we're grinding ourselves into oblivion. No, not the piece by Piazzolla (let's argue whose version stays more true to the composer's intent), but the actual "who cares anymore, it's boring" kind.

from madison's most recent facebook post: "Madison Scouts That Scouts have a few select positions available in the horn line. In particular, we are looking for lead trumpet players with exceptional range. If you are interested in auditioning, please contact Dann Petersen at director@madisonscouts.org"

A waffle is a pancake with syrup traps. ($1 to Mitch Hedberg)

It's late. I was reading and for some reason the song California Gurls came into my head only replaced with California Corps. I was amused and started thinking about lyrics and I had filled in so many lines I managed to change that atrocious song into an atrocious song with interesting lyrics. Only really references Blue Devils and SCV (And yes I have my little jabs at Blue Devils but I mean no offense to them) but that's only because of a lack of lyric room. So yeah. A random New Years fueled parody of Katy Perry's California Gurls. Yeah. I'm weird. (And that rapping part was actually really irritating to do) To Blue Devils, SCV, Pacific Crest, and the Mandarins (California Corps) I know a corps, Where the drill is really cleaner. Tall, loud, and proud, They have a sound like no other Mirrors, chairs, and more As they change the face of drum corps (playing) Corps break their legs Tryin’ to beat them at marching (in step) They travel the world But nothing matters as long as they get gold Once they go on the field Judges fall in love (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) California corps, they’re unforgettable Bibbers and coats with plumes on top A sun-kissed sound so hot, they’ll melt your face off (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) California corps they’re undeniable Championships are a lock, West coast represent, now put your horns up (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) Vanguard’s cymbal V And fans cheer a little louder They sleep, on a bus Because soon they’ll do the Viper They travel the world But nothing matters but tradition Once they go on the field Fans be falling in love (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) California corps, they’re unforgettable Bibbers and coats with plumes on top A sun-kissed sound so hot, they’ll melt your face off (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) California corps they’re undeniable Championships are a lock, West coast represent, now put your horns up (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) Tuned, tanned, fit, and ready Sound real good and march real steady. Loud, proud west coast, These the corps I love the most I mean the ones, Like champions, Blow it, beat it, play that drum That corps a freak, They keep that beat with their feet No way, they love to play Work all day, better than okay Here at Indy, marching Summer time is everything! This corps be playing out All them corps be hanging out Sabres like lasers, hard labor, you savor Corps and drum major, My four corps (Yeah?) Keep doing more (uh, huh) I cheer for ya, Cause you representing California (oh yeah)! California corps, they’re unforgettable Bibbers and coats with plumes on top A sun-kissed sound so hot, they’ll melt your face off (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh) California corps they’re undeniable Championships are a lock, West coast represent, now put your horns up (oh-oh, oh-oh, oh) (oh, oh-oh, oh-oh, oh-oh)

for how many decades was the definition of drum corps drums, brass, and color guard? Sure there were changes in marching technics...but no Major changes in the 3 basic components...drums, brass, and color guard. The year 2000 rolls along...still the same definition...then we go to Bb....technically, it's still the same definition...drums, brass, and color guard. Then we add amping the pits...then we add narration...than we add mic's... Your definition of drum corps is only 6 years old, and it is a slap in the face of the (yes, i'm gonna say it) MAJORITY of the fans that still want the definition of drum corps to be just drums, brass, and color guard, and not drums, brass, color guard, amps, mic's, synthesizers, narration, etc. Why are people so insistent to turn drum corps into marching band? Isn't there room for both? Quit bastardizing OUR drum corps into YOUR marching band.

I only have one question. Is there really no way that the thread title can be changed so it's less of a flame-bait?

You're welcome. I expect that the last dying words to be uttered from my mouth will be, "Remind everyone that 'Bluecoats' is one word."

Essentially it's this, drum corps is no longer a defineable art form, as it has been in the past. It's simply marching band. It's nothing new and scary just the evolution or mutation of what used to be a clear art form to what has been "marching band". All this new (so-called) "innovative" stuff that "corps" are doing (aka voice) has been done by BOA for quite some time.

Well, that is most likely always going to be an issue. Not just for Academy, but the same situation occurs at Colts, Crossmen, Spirit, etc. I would also venture to say G-men and BK lose members to higher placing corps from year to year. I would say that I suspect the jumping between top 12 corps is less than from non-top 12 to top 12 corps. Appearing on Saturday night in front of DCI's largest crowd of the year is not only the goal for every corps, but for every corps member. Performing later and later on Saturday night is the next goal. Finishing first is a crap shoot. Many have banked on BD in the past ten years of ring chasing and finished out of the top spot.

Oh brother. lol. Nice job

Off topic, but you guys (Star Alum) sounded AWESOME at the age-out ceremony

point taken. Your are very right there. We actually had two sets of bars that we used. One stayed out of the sun, the other was used during rehearsals. We still cracked bars on the show set even without them being in the sun very much at all. They were however on a truck baking. Heat is heat. But 2 months of sun and heat alone won't crack bars. I have a set of wooden deck chairs that have been in my back yard for 10+ years. They look great. But, I'll bet if i smacked them with a stick every day they would disintegrate.

I agree and I disagree. I would never call what the pits use "concert technique" even after the amps. There is still a ton of visual fluff added to the strokes of almsot every pit. You see this annoying "pull the sound" business applied. I'm sorry, but your still hitting it. You don't pull on it. That said, I was in the pit for 5 years and I can definitely say that we were banging away relative to how they can play now. The pit amplification has allowed them to play at much more controlled volumes, yes. But, more than that it protects the instruments themselves. We routinely cracked bars in marimbas and it was from no other reason than we were beating the dog snot out them all day every day. I'm not a fan of amplication other than for the pragmatic reason that in this case I believe it might actually save the instruments from being damaged to the point that they are no longer playable. There were definitely times where we were scratching our back between notes. If I can see your triceps and your elbows are above your ears when playing marimba, your probably doing some damage. The mics prevent this. If your going to use the B-flat horns it is basically hypocritical, in my opinion not to mic the pit. Throwing vocals in and adding synth is a different thread of justification. Using B-flat horns and amplifying the grounded percussion fixes a problem (at least a preceived problem by someone). Vocals and Synths don't fix a problem and are therefore just a change for the sake of change. And it is these aspects of show designs that can elicit a 100 page thread. This one is gonna get there soon. That's just my 2 cents.

That also goes for shows of 40+ years ago too, so I think we're in synch! :-)

Even with my little band we mic the marimba and vibes, and are able to get a much rounder and full sound by being able to use softer mallets than the rock-hard ones we used before. It's really night and day...our first two shows this year we did not have the mics ready for the mallets, and the marimba sound was much harsher and less resonant with the mallets we had to use. Once we got the mics set up and changed the mallets, the sound was MUCH better.

Elementary level? Marching percussion? I doubt you'll find very many elementary programs focusing on that. Or are you referring to percussion in general? Our music program has plenty of percussionists...just very few who choose to do marching band. Maybe TS is the same way. BTW...don't assume that the HS director has anything at all to do with what the lower grades do with their programs...in my district each level is 100% independent.

Awww you called me Ms Troop. I feel... old. (well I am, but let's not focus on that.) I'm really not sure which of these scenarios is truly more likely in today's drum corps climate. The "gorilla" scenario is what I hope for most because it's exciting and it creates more/better competition at all levels. And because so many corps seem to be working toward greater internal administrative health, the rest of the corps mechanism is also becoming more healthy. I think this contributes to more gorilla potential. (again, if it's true) People are excited about a lot of corps outside of top 12, and that is also a good sign. So, I'll just say this: may the best gorilla win! (as long as it's the Troopers. )

The best posters the last several years belong to the Reading Buccaneers. Below are just a few examples.

Ok as some one who marched color guard in drum corps for 3 years and 2 in independent world WGI, I would say that the Cavaliers were better. They had a difficult and effective equipment book, and though I personally liked the Bluecoats movement book better, the Cavaliers weren't far behind in that category. Put all of that on top of the cavaliers demanding drill book, and it is clear why they came out on top. Another note is that, contrary to popular belief, color guard isn't necessarily judged based on difficulty of book or cleanliness. If we were just going to hand high guard to whoever was te cleanest we would see Cadets winning every year, or if they gave it to whoever had the most difficult equipment book than Blue Stars probably would have won the past two years. Color guard in DCI is more based on how well the the performers and design team conveyed the message and impact of the show to audience and judges. Of course things like achievement and difficulty factor into the score, as they are necessary to generate effect, but again it is the subjective impact of the color guard that gets them a score. This is how the Blue Devils. talented as they may be, can win best color guard 2 years in a row even though they have one of the easiest equipment books in the top 12 (drop spins while sitting down, anyone?).

I think you should re think your statement, talent has very little to do with the ability to read music. Buddy Rich didn't read music, would you say he didn't understand his instrument. There are plenty of cats who could read the hell out of a chart but had the timing of a rock and therefore didn't accomplish much.

if the Crossmen can connect musically, then I'd say watch them fight for the spot and become the fan favorite

I guess I don't really understand what your point is with your "corps don't play the game lose" comment. Someone said this before me, but there are a lot of obvious points when the pit plays more than an accompaniment role. Look at 2005 Phantom. Their show revolved around the pit, and it was an essential character in their show. And isn't the marching technique employed by the horns and drums a type of technique designed so they can max out their ability without injuring themselves (or an "injury free technique")? Look at Jazz running - it's designed so they can travel quickly without injuring their bodies, or their playing chops. As I stated in an earlier post, look at how marching shoes are designed nowadays. They're designed to help the marchers achieve their goal without hurting anyone, just as the amps help the pit players not hurt themselves.

Popular argument on DCP: "If a kid plays a reed instrument or piano and wants to march drum corps they should learn a brass or percussion instrument" except for "If a kid plays tenors and wants to march in Tarpon Springs that sucks and they the director should change his philosophies and field a drum line." While Tarpon Springs' battery philosophy is not one I 100% agree with, I do whole-heartedly believe that the band program there is doing everything right as far as developing a consistently great program. Also, a percussionist in HS (in my opinion) should be well-versed in all aspects of percussion: therefor it should not be 'bad' for percussionists to play mallets or aux. percussion for the field show and not exclusively play a battery instrument.

I believe designers will continuously come up with things we haven't witnessed. But just as Mies van der Rohe commented that we don't invent a new architecture every Monday, some of those things will be old things repackaged in new ways. Phantom Regiment's 2008 "Spartacus" is a great example of that. Carolina Crown's 2009 "Puck" segment brought body movement to a new perspective. The Cavaliers' "This is my rifle" segment was something where the constituent parts were not exactly groundbreaking, but the treatment was fresh and invigorating. And while some didn't embrace the music Blue Devils performed, my jaw was practically on my laptop keyboard every time I saw it. Designers have several months to try to come up with something new and exciting. We will continue to be amazed and sometimes alarmed at what they have yet to conceive.

Gee, 38 years ago was my LAST marching year, yet each and every year I am amazed at what the members do on the field, and the talent of the designers/instructors who provide such great shows for them to perform.

There were lots of groups that were holding over. BD, BK, and Bluecoats were for sure 3 of them. There was a lot of stupid behavior that night from a lot of corps. The current (very lame) retreat format that was adopted in 2009 is a reaction to that. A lot of groups play these games. Honestly, in my 25 years of being around drum corps I can say that it happens everywhere. Now, that does not make it right at all. Quite frankly it is one of the things that really bothers me about the activity, but I am also not one to say that only these corps are the ones that play stupid games at retreat or at the gate and these other corps don't, because I know better. When it all comes down to it, these corps are comprised of 150 young people (16-21) and like most large groups of young people there are going to be some individuals who insist on engaging in stupid behavior that reflects poorly on the rest of the group.

Unfounded accusation? In your opinion - sure. I attempt and fail - in your opinion sure, but not to the members of both organizations. Arrogance rarely seen here on DCP - sounds like a personality issue not a trolling issue. Again, go ahead and PM, but for the time being - let us stick to the topic at hand and not waste time calling others out on trolling, when no trolling has taken place. Getting involved once a claim has been made and confirmed by multiple sources indicates that you are upset by the claim, and thus feel threatened that the image of your corps might be tainted in some way. Again - I did not choose to violate typical respect code in uniform, only to post about it. If you are referring to the blue devils comment, then I would like to see this infamous youtube video that proves it was another corps. Show me your proof that I am trolling, unbiased.

Why tackle on the entire post then. Can you link the video, not that I don't believe you, but I would like to see it for myself. I really don't believe you have grounds to call ignorance

Show proof. Don't add comments unless you have something valuable to add to the discussion. The topic at hand is corps rivalries, and we have demonstrated that there is some rub between Carolina Crown and other corps. Because you chose not to believe doesnt mean that the comments are false. If you would like to comment about the way I post or my subject matter, PM me. When you feel like you have anything worthwhile to say, I am sure it could contribute nicely to the topic. Until then, enjoy your troll accusations for a nice christmas dinner and eat them.

Ah, my apologies. FSU automatically means Florida State University around these parts unless you are talking about a smaller college in Maryland, which usually gets it full name spelled out. Fresno State! Not sure if that is actually the school you go to, but I forgot about other FSU's.

I am not trash talking for the sake of trash talking - if you are convinced based on the word of your friends that is ok, but it doesn't override the rivalry that many other members of both organizations have admitted to and fueled. I won't pretend the Cadets havn't done anything either - thats all part of the rivalry as well, but I do not know of any specific things they have done. Watch the 09 Crown tour DVD. If i had a dollar for every time one of the members talks about how they did in comparison to the Cadets the previous evening, I'd be rich. Seems pretty obsessive to not have anything to do with a rivalry, or one certainly in the making For the record - I know of many Cadets that go to FSU

I guess you just havn't heard yet. Specifically - Carolina Crown members have actually punched the helmets and shakos of other corps as they march by. I have SEEN this take place, besides the fact that I have heard all about it from the members of both corps. Cadets and Crown definitely have a rivalry, as the members of both corps consider the opposite corps their rival. I do not know what your definition of a rivalry is. If you go to FSU, which I assume you do, you should talk to some cadets that go to FSU and ask them specifically if they feel there is a rivalry between them and Crown.

I have many friends that marched both crown and cadets throughout the 2000's, and the rivalry story developed a lot over that span of time. Crown hated the Cadets during their rebirth years when the separated from YEA and tried to establish themselves as a real threat and do so with their own identity (certainly accomplished). The hatred kicked back when Crown first beat the Cadets in 2008 and started to escalate from there. Although the members don't try to hurt each other in the parking lot, there are DEFINITELY strong feelings of hatred back and forth between the corps. Cadets have yet to sacrifice their class in uniform, but Crown members have openly disrespected the Cadets while both corps were in uniform and tried to get the Cadets to fight back in ways that other corps, even the Cavaliers, have not done. This includes physical interaction as well, not just verbal. As far as BD and Crown go, I don't think anybody at BD is worried about Crown ; ) Crown members may be bitter because they can't reach the next level, but Blue Devils are riding high and show no sign of slowing down and letting Crown pass them. Rivalries have two sides

Not sure if I can link to this clip, but it's rehearsal footage of the Madison Scouts Alumni Reunion Project playing "The Way We Were." Give it a listen. Pretty much a "who's who" of idiomatic drum corps brass arrangement elements. Elements that exploit and are endemic to the unique instrumentation of a drum and bugle corps. Yet I can think of virtually no corps that used any of them in their brass book this past season, save a few corps with arrangers experienced in the idiom at the helm. The drastic change in arranging style is astounding, and mostly what's responsible for a decreased personal emotional connection (this I'm sure of) and audience emotional connection (just a conjecture, don't want to speak for others, IMO, IMHO, what have you). What's caused it? Instrumentation seems to be a big one...you can't do what they did with a G midvoice section on F mellophones, for instance. But there has to be more to it. Influence of wind ensemble? Less experienced arrangers with the tried and true ones moving on? Shifting current member interest? Surely it's not due a decrease in hornline talent. As another observation, this arrangement takes on a level of musical maturity dwarfing that of a lot of what was on the DCI top 12 field this past year. Played on so-called "inferior instruments" with players 20 years on average older. Why is that? Let's find the arranger of this piece as it was played, because that person should be arranging for the junior corps activity. Bonus: Can you identify the idiomatic arrangement components from the chart?

No, I didn't. A simple ⌘F on the topic page reveals there are 13 matches for "inferior." I used the word to refer to the fact that the instruments of the type they were using are ofter referred to as "inferior" to their Bb/F counterparts. That passage was quoted several times, and then TAFL used the word to actually describe arrangements, but I never did. That is exactly correct. The algorithm I was finding simply measures how similar one arrangement is to another. In this case, it would be interesting to apply such an algorithm to a corps arrangement compared with the original, and see how this distance on average varied over the past few decades. I never said it had anything to do with the quality of the arrangement.

Not quite sure you understand.

Wasn't going to bring up the Blue Devils 2010 show in this topic, but we can talk about it if you want. Plenty of the music this past season was arranged conservatively, but how much was arranged idiomatically as identified in the MSARP clip and in this topic? With a few notable exceptions, not much. The Glassmen's 2010 wind arrangements, say, could have fit just as well for a scholastic marching band, but as for that of the clip in the first post, not a chance.

Definitely. What I have in mind works with a numeric representation of the written music, not an acoustic sampling, so it wouldn't take into account overtones. The SCV 1988 vs. 1989 example is a pretty straightforward one. The openers are largely different so there's some percentage with no similarity at all, and then depending on what the weights would be for added/removed passages, instrumentation switches, etc., the dissimilarity would increase for the Masquerade opening duet, repeated initial Masquerade verse for '88, switch from ensemble ('88) to euphonium solo ('89) leading into the push at the end, etc. Nothing subjective except for how you weight the different classes of deviations, but there's even a way around that. I think we're getting on the same page.

Not if we have an objective measure by which to define it, which we do. There's no subjectivity in the measurement, only inaccuracy. A perfectly accurate measurement of the edit distance between two musical arrangements is not a function of the opinions of the measurer. Great. Now you're going to get me actually implementing an applicable form of the algorithm just to prove my point.

"How true something is to the original" is not a subjective claim. It is an objective, mathematical claim. It's defined by the so-called "edit distance" between notes and sections in the arrangement compared to those in the original. This is the same algorithm used by word processing applications to determine which alternative words to suggest for a misspelled word, say those with the smallest n edit distances. Sure, you can define the formula in different ways, but as long as you're explicit, there's no room for subjectivity or bias (outside of the mathematical sense).

That's not what he said. He referenced a particular section. And used, well, data. You know, the stuff that supports arguments.

Alright, one "no." Thanks! You don't really understand my argument and are missing some of the finer points. It's not an opinion but rather a falsifiable hypothesis. Nothing to do with this topic, though, so let's keep that out of it. I stand by what I said in my previous post.

Perfect. So now that we've established that I'm not just trying to cause a stir, and that indeed there's been a massive shift in arranging style, let's take the discussion further. What caused this shift, and when did it start to manifest? The idiomatic programming has been mostly identified. Which elements are better off abandoned and which deserve a return? What source material can be used to allow for these elements but still remain relevant to today's members? How can today's show design allow for more idiomatic arranging as identified? Which corps today are closest to keeping these idioms intact? Progress.

Who says it has to be composed today?

Both of my statements are factually true, since in the first I'm talking about the connection I personally feel, and in the second, I'm comparing two different instruments and claiming that one cannot exactly match the sound of the other. You realize that, right?

Some more that I can think of: Classic baritone soli of the main theme, with a soprano response to finish... ...led into by a sixteenth note scalic pattern Laid-back swing section bridging the two themes Climbing triad topping off the sop soloists

Right, it has nothing to do with amount of pieces being played. But in today's design, it's no longer about the tune. The tune is there to serve another purpose, it seems, with obvious exceptions.

A+. Ever consider going into drum corps arranging? That post alone qualifies you greater than a lot of the guys we have today.