Academy...why the special treatment, DCI

[willyc]

Thanks for the link, audiob!

I understand where you are coming from relative to this post.

If this was an actual memo, then the plan laid out in it (from DCI, I would assume) seems to have been followed. Academy was credited for the Atlanta show with a score of 77.35 - their score from July 14th.

It seems that there wasn't any mention of a slotting position for Academy at San Antonio, but I can make the small stretch that if the DCI BOD agreed before the season to use Long Beach as a substitute for Academy in Atlanta, then they would be credited with the score for the San Antonio seed.

I also agree with whoever said they were given a gift, considering their competition on the 14th versus the competition in Atlanta, but there seems to have been a policy set in place before the season, and followed.

I still don't agree with it and don't have to like it, but at least, if true, indicates that no special favors were granted without discussion and agreement before anyone stepped on the field for 2007.

Edited July 18, 2007 by willyc

[corps e feldman]

Well, you have to be careful with analogies here because there are lots of variables. It's easy to say, hey the Bears can't just play half the games and then show up at the Super Bowl. (although some would argue that's exactly what the did this year ^0^ ). Because in football or baseball or sports like that it is the cumulative standings that determine your playoff participation. Not the case here.

But I will give you a couple of closer examples. How about golf. Or auto racing. Now I'm not an expert on the rules here, but not all golfers do the saem number of events. They do enough to qualify for whatever it is they want to qualify for -- PGA championships, US Open, whatever. Or the INdy 500 in the case of auto racing. But then when that event starts, everyones on equal footing regardless of how many or few events you participated in to get there.

Just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

I must say, the Golf (I'm a golfer) and the Indy race (I hate racing) are EXCELLENT examples and much more germane to the discussion than the other examples quoted before you. Thank you for your logical interpretation and answer to this post.

[MadDadi07]

Well, you have to be careful with analogies here because there are lots of variables. It's easy to say, hey the Bears can't just play half the games and then show up at the Super Bowl. (although some would argue that's exactly what the did this year ^0^ ). Because in football or baseball or sports like that it is the cumulative standings that determine your playoff participation. Not the case here.

But I will give you a couple of closer examples. How about golf. Or auto racing. Now I'm not an expert on the rules here, but not all golfers do the saem number of events. They do enough to qualify for whatever it is they want to qualify for -- PGA championships, US Open, whatever. Or the INdy 500 in the case of auto racing. But then when that event starts, everyones on equal footing regardless of how many or few events you participated in to get there.

Just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

Am I correct in assuming then that DCI has spelled out the criteria regarding number of shows/rankings/show order etc., and that this criteria applies to any/all Corps? If so, the whole discussion would seem much ado about nothing.

[Liam]

Am I correct in assuming then that DCI has spelled out the criteria regarding number of shows/rankings/show order etc., and that this criteria applies to any/all Corps? If so, the whole discussion would seem much ado about nothing.

Well, that's my understanding. But one of my issues with DCI is that a lot of these "rules" aren't really spelled out anywhere (for us, that is -- not meaning the corps). I've heard you can order a rulebook (for $). And I understand that they're not REQUIRED to publish anything, but it does make it a little frustrating for the ticket-buying public. That aside, though, I do think this is much ado about nothing. All the corps make their choices based on the rules in place -- rules that they all voted on by the way. Most find it better for competive reasons, recruiting, sponsorship, souvie sales, show receipts, etc, etc to do a full tour. Some do not, for whatever their reasons. Argue with the rule if you want, but not with a corps for following it in their own way.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Liam

[VKMello84]

On the issue of fairness:

Is there another activity, sports or performance, amateur or professional, where a particpant can opt in and opt out of the activity as finance or circumstance dictate? Presumably DCI allows this, and on that basis it is okay. I'm at a loss to understand that perspective, but I'm trying. You are either in the arena, and competing in the same crucible that is tour or you are not.

Golf and tennis would be the two most high profile sports where many of the participants do what ever they want in terms of contests.

Neither DCI nor any of the participant corps are run at a profit. DCI really cannot dictate what exactly a corps does; it is more of a loose association. DCI promise to pay an appearance fee for each show, and the corps goes to that show. There is a lot of work going in to what shows which corps will go to, but ultimately the corps has the decision of where they will go.

This sort of thing they have now where almost everyone seems to be on a tour for seven weeks seems really unreasonable and is likely putting a strain on a lot of units. At any rate, if they did impose a rule requiring each corps to do this seven-week tour to be Open Class, we would have about seventeen corps rather than the 22 we have this year. I don't think that DCI believes that such a limitation is in their short term or long term interest, and I seriously doubt that many people knowledgeable about the activity believe that either.

[Liam]

Golf and tennis would be the two most high profile sports where many of the participants do what ever they want in terms of contests.

Neither DCI nor any of the participant corps are run at a profit. DCI really cannot dictate what exactly a corps does; it is more of a loose association. DCI promise to pay an appearance fee for each show, and the corps goes to that show. There is a lot of work going in to what shows which corps will go to, but ultimately the corps has the decision of where they will go.

This sort of thing they have now where almost everyone seems to be on a tour for seven weeks seems really unreasonable and is likely putting a strain on a lot of units. At any rate, if they did impose a rule requiring each corps to do this seven-week tour to be Open Class, we would have about seventeen corps rather than the 22 we have this year. I don't think that DCI believes that such a limitation is in their short term or long term interest, and I seriously doubt that many people knowledgeable about the activity believe that either.

Agreed for the most part -- one small clarification if I may ..... This quote:

DCI really cannot dictate what exactly a corps does; it is more of a loose association

DCI (meaning the member corps themselves) CAN require whatever they want for corps to qualify for their sanctioned event. They, themselves, can vote to require that all corps have to march from Denver to Pasadena or else they can't participate. They would never do that, because it's a silly idea (and suicide!!!) but the point is they could. This is an important point because it leads us to the fact that they DO, in fact, have rules for participation -- rules they have "dictated" if you will. The Blue Devils meet those rules and so does Academy. So, therefore, we can only assume that since DCI (read: the member corps) have CHOSEN the set of criteria they are operating under, that they are okay with it.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Liam

[audiodb]

On the issue of finance:

If all the Div 1 corps decided to adopt this model for next year, and going forward, what impact would this have on the fan base/revenue base to the activity at large? What would the activity look like? Would this be the growth model? The survival model?

Interesting questions - but that's not going to happen. Division I corps are free to choose that option now, yet nearly all of them choose the "full tour" route. That won't change all at once.

On the issue of fairness:

Is there another activity, sports or performance, amateur or professional, where a particpant can opt in and opt out of the activity as finance or circumstance dictate? Presumably DCI allows this, and on that basis it is okay.

There are two ways to look at that. On the one hand, you have a corps like Academy that "opts out" (or in some cases, is turned down by show sponsors, but in either case, is absent) from a weekend or two of the season, taking a fiscally conservative approach to ensure perennial program operation. At the other extreme, you have a corps like Magic, who opts out of a whole season on three occasions, but does the full tour when active. Which is preferable?

I'm at a loss to understand that perspective, but I'm trying. You are either in the arena, and competing in the same crucible that is tour or you are not.

Well, no, it's not quite that simple. "Tour" has more than one path. Atlanta was not the only crucible where division I corps competed on July 14th.

Let's remember that this is the first time DCI has ever brought most of division I together each of the first three weekends of July.

[KevinRomano]

pwned!!1

OK

[skajerk]

Still waiting, so I'll repeat..

If ANY of the top 5 were in Academy's EXACT position they are now, THIS year. They have done the SAME number of shows and DIDN'T go to one of the set up shows for San Antonio, SHOULD they go on first? (re: San Antonio)

Edited July 18, 2007 by skajerk

[MadDadi07]

Agreed for the most part -- one small clarification if I may ..... This quote:

DCI (meaning the member corps themselves) CAN require whatever they want for corps to qualify for their sanctioned event. They, themselves, can vote to require that all corps have to march from Denver to Pasadena or else they can't participate. They would never do that, because it's a silly idea (and suicide!!!) but the point is they could. This is an important point because it leads us to the fact that they DO, in fact, have rules for participation -- rules they have "dictated" if you will. The Blue Devils meet those rules and so does Academy. So, therefore, we can only assume that since DCI has CHOSEN the set of criteria they are operating under, that they are okay with it.

In 2005 and 2006, I had the distinct privelege and honor to be associated with the Blue Stars as a Blue Stars parent. I traveled a bit with the Corps in a volunteer capacity both years. During the 2005 tour in Div2, there was much discussion of their impending return to Div1 for 2006. The 2005 tour resembled a full Div1 in terms of the number of shows, as well as the amount of geography covered that year. That 2005 tour was talked about in terms of proving to DCI, that Blue Stars was capable of returning to Div1. The Corps was looked at from top to bottom, from finances, to transportation, to how well the members were being fed. At no time can I recall any discussion of either doing a partial tour, or of even having the option to do so. Perhaps that would have been somewhat above my pay grade, but the impression I had was that the Corps had to prove in all respects that they could hang with the big dogs. The 2006 tour and their successful return to Div1 was an amazing act of faith and determination for that whole organization. Thusfar the 2007 Blue Stars has not only proved that they belong, but that they will compete at the highest level of the activity. Bravo.

I've said all that in part to say this......

I'm puzzled then as to why a Corps would have subjected themselves to all of the DCI scrutiny if they had the option of returning to Div1 and participating in some ad/hoc fashion. Why would DCI even be capable of such oversight if it really is just a "loose" affiliation of member associations?