DCA is "filling a void" left by DCI's Super Corps Model

[wishbonecav]

That is not correct. The Citations are still around, and Capital Sound was a merger of two other 1985 DCI participants.

Thank you Mr. Fact Checker.

Care to weigh in on the point?

[Donny Drum Corps]

The DCM model that Roman Blenski was running out in the midwest was actually designed a lot like what you talking about Joey...the Junior DCI corps did some touring within the 5-6 hour max to home base, and on the weekend shows, DCM seniors and divisio 2 and 3 corps like Racine Scouts, Capital Sound, Marion Cadets et al. were also competing in these shows. It was sad to see it go. The first tour wasn't excruciating and gave the corps to get their tour chops together and then go back home if they so desired and regroup before the BIG tour to DCI started. It was better for equipment, buses, food storage, etc. and even rehearsal time. Some of the smaller corps could end their season at that point if that is what they wanted to do, but it would feel complete after a championship.

It gave the corps the chance to stay semi local on the first part of the season, but still compete. DCE was built on this model as well. Some of these same shows exist now as DCI shows, but there arent really "circuit" shows. DCM Championship was usually the 2nd week of July. It also included the all age corps and division 2 and 3 corps as just as much a part of the team as the division 1 juniors. When DCI told corps they would either be on DCI tour or DCM, it kind of made it impossible to get the corps together anymore, thus its demise. The last DCM championship was not well attended and didnt have the feature corps necessary for success. It was mostly seniors and division 2-3 corps.

Donny

[OperationTaps]

THE FOLLOWING IS THE NEW WAY THE OP WANTED TO START THIS DISCUSSION.

Writer's note: my OP regarding the expansion of DCA as an unintended consequence of DCI's emphasis on summer-long touring garnered several replies. I am glad to get the community talking.

Unfortunately, comparisons of corps' on-field production value as a sole means of evaluating the individual corps' contribution to the activity, misses the point.

However, if results rule (and, certainly, they have to be a part of the discussion), there are several DCA corps that make the case for quality (even when measured against the Super Corps).

To wit:

In order to gauge the level of current brass achievement in DCA, please sample the Bushwackers 2006, Buccaneers 2007 or Renegades 2007 (the closer) hornlines on DVD (if it's available) or YouTube (if you can find it).

If the criteria is ensemble blend, dedication to dynamic integrity, pacing, balance, attack / release technique and quality of sound, these ensembles rate the highest consideration when it comes to your musical enjoyment and critical analyses.

Visually, and I understand the criteria, the Buccaneers 2007 program holds up beautifully in any drum corps discussion terms of breadth, staging, transition demand, performance, individual technique and effect. The Bushwackers 2007 visual program, especially individual technique, color guard performance and ensemble staging, does the same.

Percussion in DCA, especially from a battery achievement point-of-view, is well-positioned to hold up to any level of adjudication with Bucs, Cabs and Empire being the best examples.

Clean beats and effective ensemble contribution are the measuring stick and these units pass the test.

Put simply, an impressive ensemble is an impressive ensemble, regardless the uniform. And it is proof positive that a superior musical and visual product can still be produced, and sincerely appreciated, within the framework of a weekend corps model. And this was the point of my OP.

Mind you, I am not promoting or attempting to validate a "DCA" model over the current DCI model. I am describing a "weekend" or "limited tour" model with a meaningful and viable championships format that can still produce excellent drum corps yet doesn't tax the organization to the point of folding the tent.

Theory: It is no longer possible in the DCI system for a limited tour organization to give its membership a truly valuable competitive experience because there are no truly viable alternatives within the DCI Super Corps model other than "getting on the bus."

Dismissing the limited tour corps with an "all or nothing" mentality and eliminating local circuits like DCM, ODCA, FAMQ, and DCE hasn't been a positive for DCI. It KILLED the mid-tier corps like Capital Regiment, Sky Ryders, Florida Wave, all of the corps in the Pacific Northwest (all of them!), nearly all of the East, all of Ontario, all of Quebec.

And the arrogance that accompanies this "all or nothing" mentality is palpable. There is an elitist and dismissive thread running as an undercurrent through the DCI community that is, at best, unfortunate, and, at its worst, nasty.

And the lip service given to DII is a joke. DII corps were marginalized by the emphasis on the touring model and switch from G-Bugles to B-flat instrumentation. As a result, the DII circuit has been relegated to second class. It's need as a training ground for drum-corps-specific training in marching and musicianship has been replaced by band programs. From a "drum corps experience" point of view, it can't even be considered as an option.

As a result, there are only 6 corps in DII! Six. It's almost hard to type that number. And they aren't even invited to compete any longer. That isn't a "circuit". DCI treats the limited touring corps as a nuisance and the results speak for themselves.

DCA is growing in size, stature, membership, organizational quality and production/entertainment value because they are filling the void left by the wake of DCI's decision making.

Look what DCA brings to the table:

1. full corps in Rochester, New Jersey, Harrisburg, Twin Cities, Connecticut,

2. nearly full corps in Syracuse, Atlanta and California,

3. 23 corps in Prelims, ALL of the LOCAL variety, from all regions of the USA

4. 18 mini-corps (including Star of Indiana whose ensemble quality can't really be argued with)

5. 8 alumni corps (including Bridgemen, Boston Crusaders)

6. consistently large crowds in Rochester, Bridgeport, Grand Prix, Kingston, Scranton, Syracuse, Buffalo that are often satisfied and repeat customers

6. a meaningful and SOLD OUT championship

How in the world did this happen? It could not have happened unless there was value inherent on all sides of the equation. DCI diminished the value of the mid-level, weekend participant. DCA embraced it and proved that good drum corps...often GREAT drum corps...can come from it.

Joey Cav,

Another thought provoking thread. Sorry I didn't jump in earlier. I wanted to, but I knew I would ramble, so I needed to make the proper time management considerations before writing my response.

Note: Sorry, but I’m not getting into whether DCI is better than DCA.

But…

I seem to remember, back in the early 90's when our corps (Empire) was really starting to feel vindicated about our contribution to the activity. We felt that we were building, and in some communities, Re-building the fan base of this activity.

We took every crazy gig we could. Literally! You hear people joking about playing supermarket openings… heck, we did fitty of those. Charity events, Dunk Tanks, Corporate Picnics, even Novelty Gift Stores (listen to the Statesmen, then come on in and buy a whoopee cushion). I should submit, for fairness sake, that we never actually did a Bar Mitzvah.

We had a competitive field show, a parade repertoire, and a 2 hour stage show which included several sub-repertoires. You need a half hour of patriotic tunes for a US Citizenship Swearing-In Ceremony? We got it. Big Band Swing? Russian Sailor’s Dance.? Heard It Through The Grapevine? Dance features, Rappin’ Drummers, Chorus. Gimmicks. Shtick. Props. Comedy. Just say the word.

Our attitude was that you never knew who was watching. For example, maybe a guy who played Fullback (or Nose Tackle) in HS and then played Lead Soprano in his local DCI corps 20 years ago, maybe a band director who is looking for an outlet on the weekends during the summer, or maybe a former drum corps guy who is THIS CLOSE to getting “the itch” again.

But we also knew that we might be selling a ticket to that week’s show, or that summer’s show in that town. Maybe five tickets. We might even be selling 10,000 tickets to a show 15 years from now. We knew we were on the same team as the show sponsors, and the judges were absolutely the least important people in the activity.

Were we hokey? Were we goofy? Were we cheesy? Yes, Yes, and Yes. Now get off our field.

You think it’s an accident there are 3000 people at a show in Little Falls, NY? No. We’ve been up there playing Bad Bad LeRoy Brown the last three Februarys.

Okay, what’s my point?

We became a community asset.

If you are starting a new drum corps in your town, start there.

Get known. One fan, one family, one sponsor at a time. I guarantee you 90% of Rochesterians know who you’re talking about when you mention “Those tuxedo guys with the flashy drum major.” I’m not kidding.

Have a set list of tunes that people actually want to hear… and then, if you want, put together a competitive show for the judges. And, with all due respect, ask yourself if playing “Gladiator” or “The Last Samurai” helps you achieve your 5 year plan.

To “The Activity:” Here’s an idea, let MCA corps in DCA shows. Quit complaining that fans don’t want to come to shows that are one week and 30 miles apart with the same 4 DCA corps (Nah, Ya think?). Throw in The Capital Brass, and/or the Golden Eagles, and/or the Ghost Riders, and/or the Erie Thunderbirds. Let them do an exhibition. Let the Hitmen, or the Prime Time Brass warm up the crowd for you.

And I would be remiss if I didn’t say this: Don’t let another Veteran be buried in your town to the sound of a boombox playing Taps. We’re all guilty.

Again Joey, great thread (I told you I would ramble).

Edited February 29, 2008 by OperationTaps

[JimF-LowBari]

Dang Tom I gotta agree....

And that's coming from a guy who was with Westshoremen when we played for the re-opening of a lumber yard. But for the sake of honesty, we did it because the check cleared.

Only thing I would add to the "community attitude" is be nice to whoever talks to you or asks about your "band". Again you never know who might be thinking of joining or knows someone who knows someone who..... might want to join or watch (how I ended up joining). Sometime the Lancers work "looking for members" into their introduction if possible and if it fits the occasion.

Edit: Empire being cheesy???? I still remember Empire having freakin' Uncle Sam on stilts at an ICA show in 1985. Can't remember where the show was or who else besides our corps were there. But ####ed I still remember Empire being there.... it works.....

Edited February 29, 2008 by JimF-3rdBari

[Fran Haring]

While you base your entire view of DCA corps off of 2/3 corps, let me ask you a question.....How would you feel if someone based their entire interpretation of DCI on shows with cheesy narration?

Oh wait, you get mad at that when it happens, and while I'm less than pleased with DCI's current direction, I realize there is a lot more there than just the 2007 Cadets and BOA rip off shows.

So Next time you go and rip on some "fossil stuck in 1975" for what you view are their misconceptions, look back to this thread and realize you yourself are doing the exact same thing in your views on DCA.

Maybe it will take some of the bile out of your retorts to people who don't feel exactly as you do.

Well-said, Jeff.

Tom, you say you've been involved with drum corps since 1968, and that nothing a DCA corps does would basically be a surprise to you, or of any value to you.

First of all, good for you that you've been involved this long and are staying involved. And I salute your support of DCI and its corps....... DCI is a great organization, IMO.

But when you dismiss DCA out of hand the way you do.... well, what Jeff said.

Tom, my involvement in drum corps goes back to 1967. And I can honestly say that in those 40-plus years, there are at least two current DCA corps that are completely unique and different from anything I've ever seen on any level of the drum corps activity..... the corps I'm referring to are the Empire Statesmen and the Renegades. And, in a given year, I would add the Hawthorne Caballeros and the Bushwackers to that list.

So, yes, in my opinion, DCA can and does bring something different to the table. It appears that in your case, we're trying to convert the unconvertible..... but hey, it's worth a try.

DCI is a good thing..... but DCA is, too, on its own level.

Fran

[Tom Brace]

And that's a shame Tom. I'm one of those people who started and stayed in DCA. Never marched a show in DCI, and have no regrets about it. In my years in the Westshoremen, I marched with kids...I mean I was old at 20 when I joined.....who did time with us, went on to DCi corps, mostly Cadets and Crossmen, then came back to Westshore. Even in the corps last year as a DCA Open class finalist, 1997, I can look at that drumline and see rookies who went on to Cadets, Crossmen and Bluecoats....2 of them were 13 and I was proud to watch them age out 8 years later.

If you looked at the make up of many of the corps in DCA, you'd see the same thing is happening. Empire, younger every year. Bucs, probably among the youngest of all DCA corps. Name a corps, you'd see a lot of DCi aged members.

Kids are finally realizing DCA is a great way to start gaining experience with 1/5th the cost. Many do go on to march a junior corps, and many of those come back and do more DCA time.

While you base your entire view of DCA corps off of 2/3 corps, let me ask you a question.....How would you feel if someone based their entire interpretation of DCI on shows with cheesy narration?

Oh wait, you get mad at that when it happens, and while I'm less than pleased with DCI's current direction, I realize there is a lot more there than just the 2007 Cadets and BOA rip off shows. Less and less, but still, there is more there.

So Next time you go and rip on some "fossil stuck in 1975" for what you view are their misconceptions, look back to this thread and realize you yourself are doing the exact same thing in your views on DCA.

Maybe it will take some of the bile out of your retorts to people who don't feel exactly as you do.

Interesting that you chose one of my less sour posts to comment on.

Ah well. Again, you all brought this thread to the DCI forum. I DO NOT and HAVE NOT gone down to the DCA forum and posted. And by the way...I WILL NOT either. It's simply because what DCA does does not interest me. I've said that countless ways. DCA does not interest me. If DCA was all there was left of drum corps...guess what? I still wouldn't be interested.

It could be a great weekend in upstate New York. I'm happy for you. Hava a ball. Get those instruments all polished up and have yourselves a great time. I'm not stopping you.

But, for me...DCA will NEVER fill a void for DCI.

Now, I grant....for some of the corps mentioned in this thread, it may prove as an alternative to the DCI model. Fine. I'm ok with that too. But, I don't have to buy a ticket and I don't have to watch it.

Now...hasn't this thread just about exhausted all it's salient points?

[Jeff Ream]

Interesting that you chose one of my less sour posts to comment on.

Ah well. Again, you all brought this thread to the DCI forum. I DO NOT and HAVE NOT gone down to the DCA forum and posted. And by the way...I WILL NOT either. It's simply because what DCA does does not interest me. I've said that countless ways. DCA does not interest me. If DCA was all there was left of drum corps...guess what? I still wouldn't be interested.

It could be a great weekend in upstate New York. I'm happy for you. Hava a ball. Get those instruments all polished up and have yourselves a great time. I'm not stopping you.

But, for me...DCA will NEVER fill a void for DCI.

Now, I grant....for some of the corps mentioned in this thread, it may prove as an alternative to the DCI model. Fine. I'm ok with that too. But, I don't have to buy a ticket and I don't have to watch it.

Now...hasn't this thread just about exhausted all it's salient points?

Nope. There's a lot more that can be discussed to the OP's point about the non National Touring model options being a great way to help drum corps grow.

Because, really, is drum corps growing? In quality, yes in all areas. In numbers? Not on the junior side. Sure, DCI crows about all the thousands of kids that get cut. But of those that do get cut, what portion come back to try again?

Sure, with more corps, the overall quality curve may go down. But I remember just 16 years ago, in 1992, that there were more than 25 corps at quarters, several fighting to even get into semis. The quality below 12 wasn't bad at all. D2/3 as it was then called had a ton of great corps. Many talented ones didn't make finals.

Now, we're left with what...maybe 50 junior corps? Show me how that's helping drum corps grow.

Oh...and the loudest crowd reaction that week in 1992?

The Kilts performance. How funny that is.

as for your views on DCA...yes, you are entitled to them. I'm not trying to beat my views into you. I'm just trying to help you understand where your perception isn't accurate as to what's really happening on the All age side. Our staff then, and even when my then caption head worked elsewhere in 2006 said "we're a training center and retirement home".

That's a philosophy drum corps at all levels needs. The now Open Class used to claim that. "come learn with us, then move up". With so few of them left, DCA HAS filled that void. You now have people who never marched a day in alumni corps. I have a 20 year old in my bassline at Westshore. Why? he wanted training so maybe he could get his day in "marching music's major leagues".

And also to show you be careful how you bark, a bigger dog may have a bigger bite.

[tubajoe]

Wow. Cool thread!

A few years back I decided to take a season off from teaching DCI and a couple of friends asked me if I’d be interested in helping out in DCA. I knew almost nothing about DCA, nor did I ever intend of being active in it. I was pleasantly surprised.

Drum corps wise, it is almost the same -- the corps rehearse the same, and the people are the same. The judges are the same, the instructors are the same, and the designers are the same. Many top DCI judges judge DCA, and MANY of the “movers and shakers” in the DCI design world have a foot in DCA.

The main difference is TIME. A DCA time scale is abbreviated even beyond marching band - which poses some interesting challenges. The one big advantage for members and instructors alike is that they dont have to sacrifice the rest of their lives for being involved drum corps. To me personally, this is a biggie (just ask my wife)

A lot of music happens in the DCA process, simply because corps have to work fast and the determination of the members is incredible. There is no time to spend half a day defining the angle of the 4th toe on the e of 3.

Often (at least in the corps I currently work for) the difference in experience member-to-member is remarkable. For instance, in one section, playing the same part, I had a guy with a masters degree in music performance from a top conservatory standing next to a guy who marks his music with 1, 2, & B. I've got a handful of people who have over 20 years of marching experience. (You think you can read a drill chart well?)


...We all work together and things tend to get done very quickly, in a very positive manner. Work ethic is the key, regardless of age, and the learning curve is ferocious.

A large part of DCA is now comprised of DCI aged members (I would guess 40-50%, more in some corps) and therefore DCA is now a viable opportunity and alternative -- and has been a help for kids getting into college and other career choices. I also work to prepare and send kids to DCI corps, just as I help them prepare for college.

DCA is not DCI, but is no less relevant. As many in this thread have stated, it is taking an important role.

Here in the Northeast, DCA is very visible in the band world, simply because the 5 current top DCA corps are located within a half-day’s drive from each other.

Now will I ever decide to go back to DCI at some point? Possibly, but in the meantime DCA is an amazing amount of fun. Corps rivalries are intense and the work ethic and camaraderie are amazing. And frankly, I don’t see current DCI as all that much more progressive than DCA. As someone who works professionally in many different types of music, I think that DCI is more homogenous sounding and looking than ever. (a topic for another thread..)

The great instructor Jim McFarland told me that he enjoyed DCA because of the PASSION. I have to agree.

Anyway... Who are we kidding?? no matter if it is DCI, DCA, WGI, BOA, USSBA, DCP etc etc... it’s the SAME bunch of geeks hanging around!

You love it all, and you know it.

Drum corps is about the people and the experience, regardless of the circuit.

Now go debate something else... like who is the “wind ensemble composer du jour” this month.

je

[monoemono]

Joey Cav,

Another thought provoking thread. Sorry I didn't jump in earlier. I wanted to, but I knew I would ramble, so I needed to make the proper time management considerations before writing my response.

Note: Sorry, but I’m not getting into whether DCI is better than DCA.

But…

I seem to remember, back in the early 90's when our corps (Empire) was really starting to feel vindicated about our contribution to the activity. We felt that we were building, and in some communities, Re-building the fan base of this activity.

We took every crazy gig we could. Literally! You hear people joking about playing supermarket openings… heck, we did fitty of those. Charity events, Dunk Tanks, Corporate Picnics, even Novelty Gift Stores (listen to the Statesmen, then come on in and buy a whoopee cushion). I should submit, for fairness sake, that we never actually did a Bar Mitzvah.

We had a competitive field show, a parade repertoire, and a 2 hour stage show which included several sub-repertoires. You need a half hour of patriotic tunes for a US Citizenship Swearing-In Ceremony? We got it. Big Band Swing? Russian Sailor’s Dance.? Heard It Through The Grapevine? Dance features, Rappin’ Drummers, Chorus. Gimmicks. Shtick. Props. Comedy. Just say the word.

Our attitude was that you never knew who was watching. For example, maybe a guy who played Fullback (or Nose Tackle) in HS and then played Lead Soprano in his local DCI corps 20 years ago, maybe a band director who is looking for an outlet on the weekends during the summer, or maybe a former drum corps guy who is THIS CLOSE to getting “the itch” again.

But we also knew that we might be selling a ticket to that week’s show, or that summer’s show in that town. Maybe five tickets. We might even be selling 10,000 tickets to a show 15 years from now. We knew we were on the same team as the show sponsors, and the judges were absolutely the least important people in the activity.

Were we hokey? Were we goofy? Were we cheesy? Yes, Yes, and Yes. Now get off our field.

You think it’s an accident there are 3000 people at a show in Little Falls, NY? No. We’ve been up there playing Bad Bad LeRoy Brown the last three Februarys.

Okay, what’s my point?

We became a community asset.

If you are starting a new drum corps in your town, start there.

Get known. One fan, one family, one sponsor at a time. I guarantee you 90% of Rochesterians know who you’re talking about when you mention “Those tuxedo guys with the flashy drum major.” I’m not kidding.

Have a set list of tunes that people actually want to hear… and then, if you want, put together a competitive show for the judges. And, with all due respect, ask yourself if playing “Gladiator” or “The Last Samurai” helps you achieve your 5 year plan.

To “The Activity:” Here’s an idea, let MCA corps in DCA shows. Quit complaining that fans don’t want to come to shows that are one week and 30 miles apart with the same 4 DCA corps (Nah, Ya think?). Throw in The Capital Brass, and/or the Golden Eagles, and/or the Ghost Riders, and/or the Erie Thunderbirds. Let them do an exhibition. Let the Hitmen, or the Prime Time Brass warm up the crowd for you.

And I would be remiss if I didn’t say this: Don’t let another Veteran be buried in your town to the sound of a boombox playing Taps. We’re all guilty.

Again Joey, great thread (I told you I would ramble).

:rock: :worthy:

That's all I can say about that.

[ducttapedgerbil]

Interesting that you chose one of my less sour posts to comment on.

Ah well. Again, you all brought this thread to the DCI forum. I DO NOT and HAVE NOT gone down to the DCA forum and posted. And by the way...I WILL NOT either. It's simply because what DCA does does not interest me. I've said that countless ways. DCA does not interest me. If DCA was all there was left of drum corps...guess what? I still wouldn't be interested.

It could be a great weekend in upstate New York. I'm happy for you. Hava a ball. Get those instruments all polished up and have yourselves a great time. I'm not stopping you.

But, for me...DCA will NEVER fill a void for DCI.

Now, I grant....for some of the corps mentioned in this thread, it may prove as an alternative to the DCI model. Fine. I'm ok with that too. But, I don't have to buy a ticket and I don't have to watch it.

Now...hasn't this thread just about exhausted all it's salient points?

I can take that one step further....current DCI does not fill a void for DCI...for me...