DCA is "filling a void" left by DCI's Super Corps Model

[Gary Matczak]

actually, relations between DCI and DCA are the best they have been in YEARS if not decades.

true,....................didn't the winter metings happen at the same time and place?

Edited March 5, 2008 by Gary Matczak

[Gary Matczak]

#1 A DCI corps can't simply 'go' DCA without at least one season of inactivity

#2 There are inactive DCI corps investigating the DCA route to revive their corps (I know because I have been involved in discussions with 3 total and have heard wind of others).

I was not aware a junior corps would have to take an entire season off,.................I though the DCA rule only prohibitted competing in both circuits in the SAME year.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Gary Matczak

[KeithHall]

<<Theory: It is no longer possible in the DCI system for a limited tour organization to give its membership a truly valuable competitive experience because there are no truly viable alternatives within the DCI Super Corps model other than "getting on the bus."

>>

What exactly is the VOID stated in the title of the thread? Is there a void? If kids don't want to march all summer, they can do DCA. Been that way forever. I guess it's been a void forever. Then you go on trying to explain that DCA is just as good, quality-wise, citing recent hornline examples.

Years ago we only did weekends. The Super corps traveled because they had the money. 90% of the corps back in the 70's didn't have that money but toured anyway and look what happened. There wasn't an alternative! As DCI became bigger, more emphasis was placed on touring. Joey had it right "Tour or Die!" When we were working with the Patriots, we did weekends. Other corps began to tour and we were kept down because of it. As soon as the corps started touring more and more, look what happened...they started winning. Hmmmmmm.

Excellence is a function of TIME and TALENT (assuming the personality of the talented actually cares, which is hardly the case, but I digress...)

The fact that DCI strives to maximize the TIME AND the TALENT by having everyone "on the bus" should be commended, not ridiculed.

DCA will NEVER, EVER be as excellent as DCI, for two reasons: TIME AND TALENT. They rehearse less often, and have more-diluted talent than any Super Corps.

Time YES Talent NO. That was the dumbest statement you could have made! Have you heard the talent? If a DCA corps did a DCI schedule with all the touring and rehearsing...trust me they could compete AND win!

Before you jump on me, realise that I've marched DCI "Super Corps" and DCA. I've been to DCI Finals and DCA Finals. I've been to DCI tour shows and DCA shows. The two activities are very different, and I hope it stays that way. The music-degree-holding artsy-fartsy side of me loves the excellence of DCI, whilst the Guinness-holding red-neck in me loves the rawness of DCA. Sometimes, a raw corps comes through DCI, and an excellent corps comes through DCA...not consistently, and never on the same night, but it does happen. I love it!

My point is: I don't see a void whatsever. DCA and DCI fill niches, thus leaving no voids, unless you want to hear marching band. I couldn't care less that 1,000,000 drum corps used to show up to Marion, and now only 6 show up. Kids have found other, less-physically-intenisve things to do with their free time. Good for them! Obviously, the excericse, music, performances, crowds, etc weren't enough to keep them interested. God Bless America.

[Bruckner8]

Kieth Hall said: "Time YES Talent NO. That was the dumbest statement you could have made! Have you heard the talent?"

I guess you didn't read the very next paragraph in my post, where I said that I marched DCA, and go to shows, and been to Finals a few times. Also, I never said DCA was not talented. I said the talent was diluted compared to DCI Super Corps.

Keith went on to say this: " If a DCA corps did a DCI schedule with all the touring and rehearsing...trust me they could compete AND win!"

Keith, listen to yourself. Of course DCA could win against DCI, *IF* they solved the diluted talent problem, AND marched DCI drill! I would hope so too, since the average age would be much more EXPERIENCED!!!! All things being equal (except age restrictions), I'd certainly hope DCA could win! Experience adds to the talent, duh.

On the flip side, note that older, more-mature people tend have a HARDER time coming to an agreement on a mission, philosophy, and structure on how to achieve said excellence. Egos are more entrenched, especially in brass. It's alomst impossible for DCA to achieve the kind of detail and blend that DCI hornlines achieve.

But I'm sorry, as talented as I am on the horn, there's no way this 44 yr old is going to march Super Corps drill! HA! At least I'm realistic about it.

[MikeM]

Sometimes, a raw corps comes through DCI, and an excellent corps comes through DCA...not consistently, and never on the same night, but it does happen. I love it!

Gonna call ######## here on the DCA comment.

You can't possibly tell me that the DCA champion corps from 2000 on (and probably earlier than that) couldn't compete with a DCI "Super" Corps today. Because I'll tell you, they could. I'm not saying they'd beat them, but I'm convinced that all the DCA champions from 2000 (and possibly even the top 3) until now would place as semi-finalist corps at minimum if they competed in DCI finals.

Yeah it's speculation, but the quality in DCA is that good now, even for weekend warriors. AND, if you gave those top DCA coprs the ability to rehearse as much as the DCI corps currently rehearse, they'd be just as good.

Edited March 5, 2008 by MikeM

[EndzoneEric]

Gonna call ######## here on the DCA comment.

You can't possibly tell me that the DCA champion corps from 2000 on (and probably earlier than that) couldn't compete with a DCI "Super" Corps today. Because I'll tell you, they could. I'm not saying they'd beat them, but I'm convinced that all the DCA champions from 2000 (and possibly even the top 3) until now would place as semi-finalist corps at minimum if they competed in DCI finals.

Yeah it's speculation, but the quality in DCA is that good now, even for weekend warriors. AND, if you gave those top DCA coprs the ability to rehearse as much as the DCI corps currently rehearse, they'd be just as good.

You make a conflicting argument. First, you say that the champions since 2000 could compete... then you say if you'd give them the ability to rehearse as much as the DCI corps rehearse, THEN they'd be just as good.

The top 2 or 3 DCA corps in a given year would be comparable, perhaps, to a mid-tier World Class corps. Leave it at that.

[kevingamin]

You make a conflicting argument. First, you say that the champions since 2000 could compete... then you say if you'd give them the ability to rehearse as much as the DCI corps rehearse, THEN they'd be just as good.

The top 2 or 3 DCA corps in a given year would be comparable, perhaps, to a mid-tier World Class corps. Leave it at that.

I think his point was that if you gave the top 3 DCA corps the rehearsal schedule of a World Class DCI corps, they would easily compete with the TOP World Class corps. With their current schedule, the claim is that they could compete as a World Class Semi-Finalist.

There is some basis for this observation: Minnesota Brass and Pioneer were both judged on the same sheets when they were members of DCM. In 1999, for example, MBI scored a 63.7 at the DCM Championships. This score was higher than both Southwind's (63.3) and Pioneer's (62.7). MBI went on to finish 4th at DCA. Southwind finished 15th and Pioneer finished 17th at DCI.

Now, here are the flaws in my observation (see, I do the work for you!):

1. These are DCM sheets, not DCI or DCA
   
2. The direct comparisons ended after DCM Championships in July
   
3. Southwind and Pioneer continued rehearsing on a DCI schedule, while MBI continued rehearsaing at a DCA schedule after DCM Championships
   
4. The direct comparisons ended after DCM ceased operations so there are no CURRENT direct comparisons
   

This is, however, the closest direct comparison we have between DCA and DCI corps.

[Donny Drum Corps]

I don't think that is too far off base using July 12th, 1999 as a barometer. And the comparison is when all three of these corps were having decent years in competition. That also means that Pioneer and Southwind would have placed fairly high in DCA finals, if the shoe was on the other foot. Of course that was 1999 and the field has changed to a more physically demanding model in DCI. And the kids that marched Pio and SW were back in high school or college and drum corps was a memory of what ended 3 weeks ago by the time DCA rolled around on Labor Day weekend.

I will say that the DCI corps get much better in the second half of the season as the DCA corps do, however in the last 3 weeks of the DCA season is usually when we see the seperation of the corps that know how to do it, and the corps that dont. Some add kids that are back from DCI tour in filling any remaining drill spots. Some corps actually get worse, believe it or not. I am saying this from experience. But the corps that know what to do, usually show their best performances on Labor Day weekend.

As I said earlier in this thread, the DCI philosophy of design is more visually driven than DCA, and the DCI model achieves their effects more from the visual component than the musical component these days. The drill they do in the finalist category is not what the top 3 DCA corps do. Thus the derived achievement of the music score while performing those physical demands would keep most DCA corps OUT of the finals in DCI on August 9th. By September 1st however, there could be one or possibly two that could sneak in the 12th spot, but I highly doubt even that. I wouldnt doubt that some would be strong semi finalists though. There isnt any possiblity in my mind that on August 12th, there are any DCA corps that would make finals at DCI. They are still way too dirty. Another point of seperation between the two is the color guard caption, which really isnt talked much about on these threads. The best DCA guards could not compete in finalist DCI, IMO.

DCA and DCI are different animals...they should stay that way. I enjoy both of them equally. But they are not the same.

Donny

[Tom Brace]

I don't see how the current touring model of DCI Div. I corps can be taken out of consideration of being a factor in the demise of some corps. DCI has been raising the bar on what it takes to be a Div. I group just about every year. Is that the only factor putting pressure on corps management? No, certainly not. But it is A factor.

Corps like Arizona Academy throw water all over this argument (it will be a year before they can choose to throw water on the field). They heaped TONS of criticism on DCP for doing much less than a full tour last season. They stayed out of extended tours, most likely cut their costs and still finished 13th. Not bad for a regional touring corps.

The upshot of all of this is that there is much less margin of error for corps management. Does that mean management is not to blame? No, of course not. But when you see so many groups struggling, even strong ones (Regiment?), you have to start scratching your head and wondering if there may be a problem.

I would agree with the little margin of error to a degree. Runnng any not-for-profit youth organization with over a millon dollar budget starts with "little room for error" no matter if you are running after or before school programs, YMCA youth activities, ESL programs, there is always little room for error.

DCI has apparently decided that it wants to ONLY be in the business of these "Super Corps", as people have taken to calling them. That's fine, but ultimately it means that only a handful are going to get to play. Does that leave a "void" in the activity? For those like me that think more drum corps is better than less, YOU BET!

I disagree. Last year, the decision to go to an Open Corps format was lauded as a revolutionary change by most of DCP. I saw it as nothing more than combining them all and changing a name, but I was told to wait to see the additional developments. Well, now I understand there is a better pay structure with revenues coming from the Fab 5 ticket promotions and I'm guessing that adjudication changes will also be made to give fairer consideration for the former IIIs to the former IIs. Just a guess.

Fortunately, it does seem that there is a groundswell of new ideas to help fill this void--I like this whole "small corps" thing that's happening now. It's a start, anyway. I don't see too many struggling DCI corps switching to DCA, but maybe there is an in-between where there can be a junior corps organization that operates more along the lines of DCA.

The small corps circuit is not in the summer, but in gyms in the spring. I don't see it as filling any voids. Please educate me more. And has it offered any competitions as of yet? I saw one announcement about it and then nothing. How many small corps are ready to go for this spring? As far as new ideas, how do you take these small corps (most under a hundred members) who in this niche, few people support, few people want to pay money to see (in shows by themselves) and make it viable? DCI has decided to subsidize it from fans who want the best seats at World Class Finals. What's the better idea that everyone else has?

[MikeM]

I think his point was that if you gave the top 3 DCA corps the rehearsal schedule of a World Class DCI corps, they would easily compete with the TOP World Class corps. With their current schedule, the claim is that they could compete as a World Class Semi-Finalist.

There is some basis for this observation: Minnesota Brass and Pioneer were both judged on the same sheets when they were members of DCM. In 1999, for example, MBI scored a 63.7 at the DCM Championships. This score was higher than both Southwind's (63.3) and Pioneer's (62.7). MBI went on to finish 4th at DCA. Southwind finished 15th and Pioneer finished 17th at DCI.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

Thanks Kevin!