Finals placement set on Day 1

[BigSnareline]

The one missing name in this thread is, of course, the Madison Scouts. Someone (Colts, BK, Spirit, Glassmen) is going to have to drop cause the boys from Madison will be in the top 12 - my bet is 8th or better.

[MCPWayne2005]

Ok dbc 03, let me indulge you.

If you believe that slotting exists, then by definition every corps that didn't make Finals last year got screwed because of slotting. Every corps that didn't make the top 6 got screwed. Every corps that should have won Finals last year but didn't got screwed. "Slotting" by definition means no matter how well a particular corps performs is irrelevant because there is already 1 or 6 or 12 or 17 corps that are "slotted" in those positions.

Now, do I believe that BD was slotted to win it all last year? No. I guess I'm not that cynical when it comes to DCI judging. But is it possible that BD was slotted to win it all last year? Well, anything is possible.

The reason I say that is look at Finals 1988. I loved the Scouts in 88. A fantastic show that I saw in person many times that year, including Finals. Should they have won Finals? It's debatable. It could have gone either way. But I will say that SCV that year absolutely brought the house down on their last company front, an amazing show through and through. Were the Scouts "slotted" to win? Again, you could argue it was the Scouts 50th year anniversary and they were a sentimental favorite.

Now take 1989. Should SCV have won over PR? In my opinion I think PR should have won it in 89. Was SCV slotted to win in 89 as a make up for 88? Again, it's debatable.

The one thing that hasn't been brought up in this thread (btw, thank you all for posting) is the fact that depending on how your corps places the year before determines the amount of money you make at each show in the current year. Now I'm not 100% sure that is correct or if it ever was the case while I marched. But if it is true, then surely that would play a huge part in how judging is assessed, wouldn't you think? Back in 86, the Troopers barely beat out 27th Lancers for the last Finals spot. And from what I remember that put an end to 27th financially.

And doesn't Finals placement determine if your corps has a say as a DCI board member? I tried looking up the bylaws of DCI and was unable to find anything. So forgive me if I'm way off. But if it's true, then wouldn't that also play a part on how corps are judged from a political standpoint?

And btw, I too never used the word "Conspiracy" in my original post. What I was trying to get at was the fact that DCI judges seem to be hamstrung by the powers that be in DCI when it comes to giving up the scores, especially to the lower tier corps.

All corps are striving to achieve that perfect 100.000 pts. Doesn't logic dictate that if your corps scores an 85.000, and you go to the judges meeting after a show and ask them what would it take to score a 90.000, they could tell you? And then a 95.000, and ultimately a 100.000?

And if that's the case, wouldn't there be more corps bunched up at the higher end of the 90s? Or is a 100.000 score an impossible mark to attain?

If you look at BDs scores last year, they started off on June 16th with a 75.9 and ended the season on Aug 11th with a 98.00. So, wouldn't you think if the season was another month longer, they would eventually hit 100.00? And so would a lot of other corps. But noone ever gets to that magical 100.00 score. Why is that? Could it be that it might upset the balance of the slots?

At any rate, this has been a good thread about this topic. And who knows...perhaps I am insane for thinking the way I do.

Thank you for your indulgence.

I don't buy into the whole slotting thing for reasons I stated, but in response to your post why 100 is not attainable. Humans are not perfect, nor can we no matter how hard we try make something perfect. As scores reach the higher end it's because less and less problems are found. that's why scoring doesn't have a constant slope. It generally raises quickly at the beginning at rates of in some cases a point a night and then those last few shows raises tenths of points. Not one member on a corps can say that they have had aperfect show, and all it takes is one person to make one mistake, no matter how small of a mistake it is, to keep the perfect score out of reach.

I think the great thing about the activity is the fact it's not attainable no matter how long it was performed. Something can always be made better. sure a jusge can tell you what it will take to score an 80 score a 90 score a 95. and for all corps the criteria will be the same. "The drill needs to be this good, playing this good etc." However 100 is perfect and a judge will look at it and say yeah it's the best I ahve seen tonight it brought me to my feet I could hardly believe my eyes but I did see this slip up here it wasnt perfect.

As far as groups that have been screwed over for finals I ahve a great example of why score alone doesn't determine it and the few people who posted that there drums and marching were bad even though the rest was good nailed it right on the money.

This is related to wgi and not dci but I think it still shows and proves my point.

A group scores just tenths of a point out of finals and 12 were taken. They had a decent show some thought they deserved to make it. The placed 3rd in marching all around. Unfortunately playing and ge were not up to snuff. they placed 9th in GE and 15 in playing. just playing alone which was pretty tight acrossed the board kept them out.

My point is if your group doesnt have all the aspects they can't always be put above another group

[mcjordansc]

The one missing name in this thread is, of course, the Madison Scouts. Someone (Colts, BK, Spirit, Glassmen) is going to have to drop cause the boys from Madison will be in the top 12 - my bet is 8th or better.

You cannot be serious. Madison might make finals, but they are just another one of four or five corps fighting for one of the last two or so spots. Eighth or better is simply fantasy land.

[BigBadMadMan]

You cannot be serious. Madison might make finals, but they are just another one of four or five corps fighting for one of the last two or so spots. Eighth or better is simply fantasy land.

How so? "Please indulge me, I beg you"....

[mcjordansc]

How so? "Please indulge me, I beg you"....

No offense intended, but I have seen them and they do not have a show (or the talent/experience) capable of a single digit finish. They are better than last year for sure, but Madison fans need to be happy if the Scouts are abloe to slip into finals this year. Thinking eighth or better is simply setting yourself up for a disappointng year end result.

[kyushujet]

I don't buy into the whole slotting thing for reasons I stated, but in response to your post why 100 is not attainable. Humans are not perfect, nor can we no matter how hard we try make something perfect. As scores reach the higher end it's because less and less problems are found. that's why scoring doesn't have a constant slope. It generally raises quickly at the beginning at rates of in some cases a point a night and then those last few shows raises tenths of points. Not one member on a corps can say that they have had aperfect show, and all it takes is one person to make one mistake, no matter how small of a mistake it is, to keep the perfect score out of reach.

Wayne,

I hear what you are saying. But it sounds a lot like you are talking about the "tic" system of judging. Corps don't start at 100.00 and go down. I believe the judges give them pts for what they see and hear and build up.

And I have to disagree with you when you say noone can say they have had a perfect show. Didn't the Cadets in 87 have a perfect score in GE drums or performance? Wasn't that a first in DCI history? I'm sure other corps since then have had perfect scores in one category or another. And if that's the case, then theoretically, it is possible that a corps could score perfect in every category, isn't it?

Again, most of the time, I believe judges don't slot. Because every time I start to believe in slotting, you get a corps like the 87 Sky Ryders that blow past everybody and firmly entrench themselves in the top 12. But I do believe strongly that every organization, including DCI, struggles with politics. And does politics affect judging? In my mind, absolutely.

[MCPWayne2005]

Wayne,

I hear what you are saying. But it sounds a lot like you are talking about the "tic" system of judging. Corps don't start at 100.00 and go down. I believe the judges give them pts for what they see and hear and build up.

And I have to disagree with you when you say noone can say they have had a perfect show. Didn't the Cadets in 87 have a perfect score in GE drums or performance? Wasn't that a first in DCI history? I'm sure other corps since then have had perfect scores in one category or another. And if that's the case, then theoretically, it is possible that a corps could score perfect in every category, isn't it?

Again, most of the time, I believe judges don't slot. Because every time I start to believe in slotting, you get a corps like the 87 Sky Ryders that blow past everybody and firmly entrench themselves in the top 12. But I do believe strongly that every organization, including DCI, struggles with politics. And does politics affect judging? In my mind, absolutely.

You got me there I did not know 87 cadets scored perfect in a caption, with that point shown, your right a corps could score 100. I agree that there are politics involved in every organization, however I do not think it is to a point where they make it that the top corps are always the top corps. I think it is a system that is as fair and unbiased as can be. Sure there are probably a few judges, and I stress few, that have weighted there scores a little to a corps they were partial too, but then again that's one reason we have more than one judge to cut down on the possiblility of biased scoring. so in answer "does politics affect judging" Not enough to argue that's why phantom, SCV, Cadets, Cavies, and the rest are always at the top. They are there because they are good bottom line.

[ShortAndFast]

I hear what you are saying. But it sounds a lot like you are talking about the "tic" system of judging. Corps don't start at 100.00 and go down. I believe the judges give them pts for what they see and hear and build up.

As I understand it, a 100.00 would simply mean that every judge in every caption felt that the performance was the best work in content and execution they had ever seen in that caption. You have to hand out al lot of 10.0 subcaption scores to arrive at a 99.15 final result, so we've come pretty close to it a couple of times already. It definitely wouldn't mean the corps' performance was "perfect".

[spanksregular]

The one missing name in this thread is, of course, the Madison Scouts. Someone (Colts, BK, Spirit, Glassmen) is going to have to drop cause the boys from Madison will be in the top 12 - my bet is 8th or better.

I understand being proud of your corps and all that, but do you really have to kind whore/borg your Madison ties in every post you make? Is it not possible for you to look at things objectively. I don't know if my corps is going to make finals or not, I can't say I'm completely sold yet, of course I hope they have a good summer (though most of the people I marched with are actually at the Cadets now......hahaha) I'm being realistic. Wasn't Madison in last place last year for a while? I don't know how exactly they're doign this year, but something tells me that they'll have to fight to get into the top 12, let alone top 8.

[jetman1287]

I keep getting in late but I totally agree with the original poster. Too predictable. How can the top 7 be so close yet so predictable? There has to be ONE night where Crown beats BD because one owns and the other has an off night. The OP is right, finals is done at least the week before.