Cavaliers hornline and design

[dciguy1987]

I'm a huge Cavalier fan, I think their designs over their years have really been impressive and sometimes stunning.

I flipped out my cam corder of their rehearsals from this year and watched it several times.

I just have to compare, I don't want to sound anti-cavie or anything but from my observations The Cavaliers hornline just does not play and march at the same time.

if they're playing it usually at a stand still or on the half-time, the entire brassline rarely plays together on the move

Been that way for YEARS, haven't played anything substantial since Niagra Falls. Hopefully they will finally get called on simultaneous demand and for playing a very weak horn book.

[mobrien]

it isn't necessarily bad -- rather it is a formula that dci rewards because the sheets credit (wrongly in my view) "excellence" over "demand" every time.

Or you could say that the sheets fail to reward unnecessarily complex or overly-busy work that results in poorer performance.

======

Someone else gave an example earlier of a segment of trumpet drill in this year's opener where the horns had an exposed musical segment but were positioned downstage left in a block playing it rather than moving. It was posited as a weakness. Yet if you looked at how that segment was staged, you notice that the guard is tightly integrated into that block doing work that visually expresses what's happening musically, and (more importantly), that keeping them down there in the corner allows the rest of the corps to develop a new form that pushes out from the upstage right corner, pulling the eye up there at the exact moment the trumpet feature is done, expressing visually what was happening within the music itself and providing a better dramatic effect.

The trumpets weren't overly burdened by busy work so they could focus on excelling musically, the guard was positioned in such a way as their work could be appreciated, and they kept the audience from watching them develop the upstage money shot. Screw the difficulty for difficulty's sake argument; from both a visual and a musical standpoint, that's simply good professional design.

Edited August 21, 2008 by mobrien

[2000Cadet]

Or you could say that the sheets fail to reward unnecessarily complex or overly-busy work that results in poorer performance.

======

Someone else gave an example earlier of a segment of trumpet drill in this year's opener where the horns had an exposed musical segment but were positioned downstage left in a block playing it rather than moving. It was posited as a weakness. Yet if you looked at how that segment was staged, you notice that the guard is tightly integrated into that block doing work that visually expresses what's happening musically, and (more importantly), that keeping them down there in the corner allows the rest of the corps to develop a new form that pushes out from the upstage right corner, pulling the eye up there at the exact moment the trumpet feature is done, expressing visually what was happening within the music itself and providing a better dramatic effect.

The trumpets weren't overly burdened by busy work so they could focus on excelling musically, the guard was positioned in such a way as their work could be appreciated, and they kept the audience from watching them develop the upstage money shot. Screw the difficulty for difficulty's sake argument; from both a visual and a musical standpoint, that's simply good professional design.

He's got a point.

[salad315]

The trumpets weren't overly burdened by busy work so they could focus on excelling musically, the guard was positioned in such a way as their work could be appreciated, and they kept the audience from watching them develop the upstage money shot. Screw the difficulty for difficulty's sake argument; from both a visual and a musical standpoint, that's simply good professional design.

I get kinda tired of hearing this argument. As true as it is, there's more to it than that. Are we to believe that drum corps should design the "Best Possible" show, as easily as possible. I mean, I'm sure you could get all your little staging moments in, perfectly integrated with the guard, with excellent field coverage, yadayada...im-a-drill-writer-too-so-i-deal-with-these-things...whatever...and do it very easily. Make everyone march and play in halftime while others run circles around the melody. Draw the eye to the appropriate place with flashy visual moves during pit breaks, then hit with the melody standing still. Fact is, it's extremely 'clever'. Fact is, as a new drill writer, i'm not good enough to do that yet. Fact is, it works very well, and is generally rewarded on the sheets, and very well appreciated by a large (but slightly shrinking) majority of fans.

Problem is, sometimes.... I JUST DONT CARE. I dont care how 'clever' the drill writer is. I DONT WANT to think....oooOOOoo, what lovely staging, look how those trumpets hardly have to even move to reach that form. Listen to them take up 45 seconds of their show by playing pitch bendy whole notes, and getting CRAZY GE points for doing something that most corps do in warmups every day. If it fits the show...good for them - what 'intelligent design, but the fact is, sometimes i want to freaking be BLOWN AWAY. I want to say HOLY ****, i cant believe their doing this. I marched, I know what's difficult, and I want to be genuinely impressed by the performance, not the designer's thoughtfulness. To be fair, I never did anything quite like what the cavaliers do visually, but then again, i was never asked to. Corps like Phantom, Cadets, and Crown (sometimes), are the ones that occasionally impress me. Someone said it earlier - but a corps like cadets doesnt get 5th because their formula of insane drill with crazy music doesnt work, or is too hard, they get 5th because their show design sucks, their drumline isnt very clean, and because the first half of their show is a snoozer (sorry, but up until the middle of rnd 4, i was asleep).

Anyway...thats all just how I look at it. Im not speaking for the judges, but hopefully, they are thinking a little more like me than not (because clearly I'm right ) As I said earlier in this thread - with all things considered, I actually liked this cavaliers show more than the past 3 years (yes, more than machine - i cant stand that show) It may help that they arent winning, so I can just sit back and say 'Ahh, what a nice show', rather than #####ing about why they shouldnt have won.

[Jared_mello]

I get kinda tired of hearing this argument. As true as it is, there's more to it than that. Are we to believe that drum corps should design the "Best Possible" show, as easily as possible. I mean, I'm sure you could get all your little staging moments in, perfectly integrated with the guard, with excellent field coverage, yadayada...im-a-drill-writer-too-so-i-deal-with-these-things...whatever...and do it very easily. Make everyone march and play in halftime while others run circles around the melody. Draw the eye to the appropriate place with flashy visual moves during pit breaks, then hit with the melody standing still. Fact is, it's extremely 'clever'. Fact is, as a new drill writer, i'm not good enough to do that yet. Fact is, it works very well, and is generally rewarded on the sheets, and very well appreciated by a large (but slightly shrinking) majority of fans.

Problem is, sometimes.... I JUST DONT CARE. I dont care how 'clever' the drill writer is. I DONT WANT to think....oooOOOoo, what lovely staging, look how those trumpets hardly have to even move to reach that form. Listen to them take up 45 seconds of their show by playing pitch bendy whole notes, and getting CRAZY GE points for doing something that most corps do in warmups every day. If it fits the show...good for them - what 'intelligent design, but the fact is, sometimes i want to freaking be BLOWN AWAY. I want to say HOLY ****, i cant believe their doing this. I marched, I know what's difficult, and I want to be genuinely impressed by the performance, not the designer's thoughtfulness. To be fair, I never did anything quite like what the cavaliers do visually, but then again, i was never asked to. Corps like Phantom, Cadets, and Crown (sometimes), are the ones that occasionally impress me. Someone said it earlier - but a corps like cadets doesnt get 5th because their formula of insane drill with crazy music doesnt work, or is too hard, they get 5th because their show design sucks, their drumline isnt very clean, and because the first half of their show is a snoozer (sorry, but up until the middle of rnd 4, i was asleep).

Anyway...thats all just how I look at it. Im not speaking for the judges, but hopefully, they are thinking a little more like me than not (because clearly I'm right ) As I said earlier in this thread - with all things considered, I actually liked this cavaliers show more than the past 3 years (yes, more than machine - i cant stand that show) It may help that they arent winning, so I can just sit back and say 'Ahh, what a nice show', rather than #####ing about why they shouldnt have won.

your post made me happy. the last paragraph especially rang true.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Jared_mello

[SF2K4]

You said you wanted to be "blown away by the performance" but again I say, is that again not an example of opinion?

Again, everyone claims The Cavaliers' show "formula" is a simple one that produces few "wow" moments... and again, I say most of you mean musically. Meaning, either totally musical (a big, loud company front) or a mix (ex: Phantom jazz running Firebird). However, I was wowed with the leaping-over-eachother move, the well executed decapitating Samurai, etc. I just don't agree with faulting the Green Machine for personal tastes, and I know we all have different tastes and that's why drum corps is great... but differing tastes shouldn't harm or help any corps.

[jwillis35]

This topic comes up with a number of corps, usually during the competitive season and largely because we like to compare the demands, design, and effectiveness of shows and then hypothesize how they should be judged.

Nothing wrong with this, but here are my thoughts concerning the Cavaliers:

They are amazing! Even as people think the formula is getting old, they were still the most striking visual show at Worlds this year. Every corps has a style, a look, a sound, a unique way of doing things. If the point was to have the Cavaliers look and sound like all the others, then what fun is that?

I appreciate the fact that we seem to be getting back to a time when many of the corps have a very unique and defined style. The Cavaliers are certainly one of those groups, and when they enter the field you just know what you are going to get, and you know it's going to be amazing and very well done. That's a good thing! So although they try to do some new things, they also have a look and sound that is somewhat predictable, but not in a bad way. What they do and how they get there may very well be a formula, but formulas are in-and-of themselves good things if used properly.

The other side of this argument/discussion is that a drum corps show cannot be defined by demand and time limits on playing vs. moving. This is why judging is so difficult. There are no ordinals, no set prerequisites for type of music and visual design, and there are no limits on how many demanding passages a show must have and or whether those passages must ALL be played while moving. The only thing that really matters is the ability of the show to communicate what it's supposed to, and for it to be entertaining while showcasing the talents of the members.

In this regard I think the Cavaliers continue to be one of the most successful corps out there. Everything works. Their show this year was beautiful, full of subtle nuance and some bold statements that emphasized the guard's portrayal of their characters. If you change the type of musical arranging or involve the horn line to a greater degree, covering up the all-important percussion and mallet parts (so needed in Japanese music), you completely ruin the needed effect of this show. Demand is only one part of the experience, and even though corps, like Cadets, had a bit more demand in the brass book, clearly we can see that the Cadets had other issues with their show. Lack of coordination in theme, music that needed changed as the narration changed, and so forth, were all issues that Cadets faced and Cavaliers really did not.

And trust me, there is plenty of demand in their book, it's just not as obvious to everyone. And just because their music isn't that sort of "jaw-dropping" variety that uses more flash to communicate the message, there are plenty of other areas to consider when it comes to construction and demand and what is needed.

[salad315]

You said you wanted to be "blown away by the performance" but again I say, is that again not an example of opinion?

Pretty much. Then again, so is using narration, singing, and electronics, and we all know how strongly those 'opinions' affect, or in some cases ruin people's enjoyment of a show. If someone is affected a certain way by something, it's kind of hard to rationalize those feelings away.

Edited August 22, 2008 by salad315

[SF2K4]

Pretty much. Then again, so is using narration, singing, and electronics, and we all know how strongly those 'opinions' affect, or in some cases ruin people's enjoyment of a show. If someone is affected a certain way by something, it's kind of hard to rationalize those feelings away.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Let me try this: How many guard members do you think really care about large hornline hits? I'm almost positive they care more about the visual as well.

[liebot]

I would be willing to bet that Cavies 4th-place brass score probably has something to do with the lack of simultaneous demand compared to the corps around them.

Also, brass and Music G.E. were the only two scores they were fourth in at finals. So it is somewhat exciting to see them finally being held responsible for their music design and performance.