Dash Fieldpaint Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I am going to have to disagree... In the 80's every corps who made finals sounded very good... Sure some better than others but all were good.In this thread it sounds like everybody but SAM is saying that itis easier to play Bb in tune... Well isn't that nice... Who the HE%$ does drum corps because it is easy... Bottom Line, it is a way to drive the two marching activities together into one (BandCorps)... See you on the 50 with a Clarinet! I'm one of the people that misses the G sound. I miss the electric burn of the upper sopranos and the mellos sailing above the ensemble. The Bb horns are easier to tune than the Gs were. (are the F mellos easier?!!) Just like how it's easier for a snare line to march and play clean with the drums on racks as opposed to slings. Were some of the sling lines from back in the day cleaner than some of the today's lines? Yes, of course some of them were. Should we go back to slings because it's more challenging? I don't see anyone pushing for that. I know it's not the best of analogies, seeing as it would be pretty much impossible to march modern drill with slings. I've accepted the multikey horns, and I've accepted that most corps (especially the lower ranking corps) sound better on them. The horn lines I marched in would have sounded better on Bb/F horns. Sometimes I wonder what the drum people think of the brass people getting into all these G vs Multikey discussions. I've seen people call the Bb/F instruments "band horns." Was there ever a time when people were accusing corps of using "band drums?" The real question is: Should 2009 Crown use brand new 3 valve Kanstul bugles or a refurbished line of 2 valve Kings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaml6 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I am going to have to disagree... In the 80's every corps who made finals sounded very good... Sure some better than others but all were good.In this thread it sounds like everybody but SAM is saying that itis easier to play Bb in tune... Well isn't that nice... Who the HE%$ does drum corps because it is easy... Bottom Line, it is a way to drive the two marching activities together into one (BandCorps)... See you on the 50 with a Clarinet! I am with you on this also... I am marching my first year in a Bb/F line this year. I honestly do not think that the horns are easier to play in tune, and you are talking about the tendancies of every note anyway (which you do on the G horns also). Hornlines in the 80's would of got their ### kicked with Bb/F against the G lines. The judges were rewarding the musicanship that it "took" to "master" the horns. Donny Allen once told me the only reason Bb/F are "better" is because of the production of the horns. You have a worst chance of getting a "lemon" horn off the Bb/F line because of the quantity of them made. So basically, Bb/F was better because the line had less horns that didnt "match" and play "well" with the others. Most G lines by the end were NOT buying a full set at a time, and would just buy hanful of sops, mellos, or baris (etc). And they were having different types of horns (king 2v, Dynasty, Kanstul, etc). So the basic tuning tendancies of the line were not the same because they were not built around the same time frame (and a few corps I have played with have horns from the first 3v models all the way to current). The musicians that we are learned how OUR horns played, knew the tendancies and adapted how OUR horn would play. If any top 6 DCI corps went G (new line from Kanstul or Dynasty), the Bb/F discussion would be put to the test! Someone hit the lottery and buy a corps a full hornline, and then we will know the truth PS - 3 Valve Kasntul with the 4 Valve Contras for Crown (of course in G) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyTenor Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Most G lines by the end were NOT buying a full set at a time, and would just buy hanful of sops, mellos, or baris (etc). And they were having different types of horns (king 2v, Dynasty, Kanstul, etc). So the basic tuning tendancies of the line were not the same because they were not built around the same time frame (and a few corps I have played with have horns from the first 3v models all the way to current). Most corps only replaced horns as needed anyway. The only time you saw a full choir being purchased was for new corps, and even they tended to buy used horns if available. When any-key came in everybody had to buy a full choir when they chose to do the switch. Now they are back in the position to replace as needed. The chances of any corps replacing their Bb/F brass with G's at this point, even if they wanted to, would be astronomical, even without the current economy. And since there is already a bias in place regarding G brass, it would be in a corps' best interest to not tell anyone they switched. Brass scores would automatically drop. Garry in Vegas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruckner8 Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I'm one of the people that misses the G sound. I miss the electric burn of the upper sopranos and the mellos sailing above the ensemble. The Bb horns are easier to tune than the Gs were. (are the F mellos easier?!!) Just like how it's easier for a snare line to march and play clean with the drums on racks as opposed to slings. Were some of the sling lines from back in the day cleaner than some of the today's lines? Yes, of course some of them were. Should we go back to slings because it's more challenging? I don't see anyone pushing for that. I know it's not the best of analogies, seeing as it would be pretty much impossible to march modern drill with slings. I've accepted the multikey horns, and I've accepted that most corps (especially the lower ranking corps) sound better on them. The horn lines I marched in would have sounded better on Bb/F horns. Sometimes I wonder what the drum people think of the brass people getting into all these G vs Multikey discussions. I've seen people call the Bb/F instruments "band horns." Was there ever a time when people were accusing corps of using "band drums?" The real question is: Should 2009 Crown use brand new 3 valve Kanstul bugles or a refurbished line of 2 valve Kings? By definition, any hornline of single-keyed instruments is easier to tune...no matter the key! Now, Bb/F lines are "more competitve" these days because people are used to playing Bb/F. My point is, the super talented hornlines of yesteryear were equally as awesome as the super-talented hornlines of today, period. What the multi-key thing has done is level the playing field slightly, so that the non-super-talented hornlines can sound better, with less effort, because 1) they're used to those keys, and 2) the instruments are smaller so take less effort. Crown did a wonderful thing last year, going with 80 horns w/16 tubas. Many corps are following suit this year (Cadets, PR, Cavies, Bloo). Bluecoats' 2008 Boxer Chorale, Shout and Sing segment last had the hearts of G-bugle lovers all-aflutter, thanks to the dark sound of the low brass, and the all-out power of the shout....ending on g minor chord didn't hurt either! No wonder some people thought Bloo was on G bugles! Like I said back in the mid-90s (on RAMD, when multi-key was just a thought), hornlines in Bb will have to be much larger (and more low brass) in order to come close to "sounding like" a G bugle hornline. Even so, with most of the hits in concert Bb these days (vs concert G), hornlines of today still sound a little brighter becasue of the higher tessitura. When I listen to 80s drum corps (I marched 84 SCV), I think "sheesh, corps certainly 'played lower' back then!" Funny thing is, Bb instrument can play just as low as a 2V G bugle, yet not too many corps use that end of the Bb horns (except Bloo). With the right number of horns, the right number of low brass (including lots of tubas and Euphs...ty BD!), and a propensity to try using the entire compass of the horn, Bb hornlines will get darker, louder and more present this year, I'm pretty sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannyboy Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) I think they'll probably move to 3 valvers next upgrade (someone had mentioned that on here a while back) . . .but, yeah, as long as the service corps are out there, there will be some units in G.Maybe the Empire Statesmen (from DCA) will stay in G for a good little while too. My understanding is that Kanstul will only make the 2-valve for the Marines. Kanstul 3v G bugles are made side-by side with the Bb and C trumpets. (we have a picture of my stepson's Powerbore G on the rack with trumpets waiting to be plated). As long as they keep the jigs for bending the G's parts -- no reason not to make them if someone orders one. They just make 'em to order. Kilties got a whole set of new Kanstul G baritones this year. Mellophones last year. Sops the year before. Sounds huge when everyone is playing horns pitched in the same key. The overtones can really jump off, in a places in the scale. No fingering differences between Bb and F horns to mess with intonation. But, that horse has been beat so many times here... Edited June 19, 2009 by dannyboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I am going to have to disagree... In the 80's every corps who made finals sounded very good... Sure some better than others but all were good.In this thread it sounds like everybody but SAM is saying that itis easier to play Bb in tune... Well isn't that nice... Who the HE%$ does drum corps because it is easy... Bottom Line, it is a way to drive the two marching activities together into one (BandCorps)... See you on the 50 with a Clarinet! And I disagree with that. Maybe 4 or 5 really had a good sound in any given year. Others could play loud, but not musically. I've noticed the overall quality of sound has gone up with Bb, though volume has been sacrificed. I'm obviously a little ambivalent about G horns and Bb horns. Bb over G by just a tad, IMO. But, that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavarium Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Yeah, they were awful, eh? I sometimes wonder how they got 4th in brass.</sarcasm> I mean, laugh all you want, but I definitely wonder. I know that Phantom 03 is kinda like a sacred show on DCP or whatever, but I don't understand how so many people let them get away with some of the sounds they made that year. I understand it's exciting, and I understand it's loud. What I don't understand is how a corps with such a rough hornline in 03 can improve so much into 04, and then get almost no attention for the improvement. The fact that 03 Phantom still outshines and overshadows 04 is astounding to me. I'll just go ahead and let it be known now that I don't have a vendetta against Phantom, either. I think they're a wonderful corps who have done remarkable things on the field the past... oh... 4 decades. I just think 03 is one of the most vastly overrated shows of all time, and 04 is one of the most underrated shows of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 OK, hasn't this been asked and answered? And are we REALLY going to spend energy during this 2009 season to debate the merits of G or Bb/F horns....AGAIN? Calling all deceased equines...come here to get your carcass spanked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dash Fieldpaint Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 My understanding is that Kanstul will only make the 2-valve for the Marines. I'm sure if you paid them enough they'd make them. They'd probably make you a piston/rotor bugle too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mello Dude Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I for one REALLY miss the G sound. If the Bb lines actually sound better than the G lines of previous years....hmmm that's a good question. I for one would say no on the football field and yes if they are standing still 10 yards from the crowd or inside a building. Where I notice the BIGGEST difference is the way trumpet lines are completely obliterated by the massive amounts of low brass today. Give my a G soprano line ANY day outside, and this isn't for the lack of trying by the modern trumpet lines its just simple science of the instrumentation. Hopefully G horns will be around for some time, Bb's are ok..been there done that but IMHO you do quite a disservice for the young men and women out there by not subjecting them to different keyed instruments because any musician worth their salt knows that you will play many different keys of your favorite instrument in your musical journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.