Phantom debacle

[Astacoidea]

DEG was just Dynasty Entertainment Group, wasn't it? Same company?

DEG = Donald E. Getzen

Related to the Getzen of Getzen, but different companies.

[USMKLAVIER]

I never said "all" top players. I said "most" as in majority. Of course there are those who don't. And that's why I also mentioned personal preference. And I'm glad you mentioned Alessi. Where do you think I heard it from?? Having a horn custom made just for you makes a big difference. Wouldn't you think he has a point?

Certainly, I think Alessi has a point, and I, as a trombonist love my Edwards. (Even though I am doctoral student in piano.)

NOW, back it up. Name me a majority of top trombonists that play the same make!

(P.S. "Custom built" does not equal picking parts of a horn. We all did that in high school and college.)

Come on, man. A Shires is a Shires. A Bach is a Bach.

I could pick the color of the paint on my Steinway, but it's still a #### Steinway.

[The Rudy]

As long as we're on the topic of Jupiter horns causing low brass scores, can we blame their shoes for low visual scores too?

Here is a dumb coincidence if you just wanna find dumb excuses. It IS the uniforms! They are back to wearing uniforms by Fred J Miller after being with Stanbury. Check the results:

Khaki uniforms with Fred J Miller (2000-2002) average finish- 6th place (lowest final result- 7th)

Stanbury uniforms (2003-2008) average finish- 3rd place (lowest final result- 5th)

All whites with FJM 2009- ?

Of course this is absurd, just helping with the crazy theories.

[Cardman]

This is a stupid thread, imo. The new horns are not the reason for Phantom's big drop in placement. I swear, you people just hate Jupiter that much, don't you? Get a life.

[84BDsop]

Was BD using DEG in the 1990s?

No....Kanstul once the 3 valve rule came in...King in the 2 valve piston era...probably Olds valve/rotors before that.

The common thread? Zig Kanstul was the designer for all of those horns!

[Feathers Up]

Certainly, I think Alessi has a point, and I, as a trombonist love my Edwards. (Even though I am doctoral student in piano.)

NOW, back it up. Name me a majority of top trombonists that play the same make!

(P.S. "Custom built" does not equal picking parts of a horn. We all did that in high school and college.)

Come on, man. A Shires is a Shires. A Bach is a Bach.

I could pick the color of the paint on my Steinway, but it's still a #### Steinway.

Again, I never said same make. I said the majority play on custom made brands. And this is from orchestral standpoint. Although Wycliffe Gordon and Jim Pugh both play on Edwards. I think Wycliffe also plays on Yamaha. I believe Edwards has a list of artists they endorse. It's a very long a respected list. And the same can be said for Shires. Large manufactures such as Bach, Jupiter, Yamaha, King, Conn, etc. have to produce a product which will suit a lot of players. They produce mostly "stock prodcuts". Some may have "custom series models" such as Doug Yeo's Yamaha Bass Trombone or Linberg's Conn. But they are still not built for you. And you can try to customize stock instruments, but it costs a good amount of money each time. There's probably a good reason Alessi said what he did. Top players want instruments with the best quality and design. And there's no doubt Edwards and Shires have led the way in both quality and design.

Oh, and a Bach is a Bach. But a Shires is whatever you want it to be.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Feathers Up

[AlexL]

I really wouldn't be to quick to drop them to the bottom 6. I think finishing as high as 5th is a possibility for them. I don't know why everyone thinks they have a horrible visual program. I'm sorry, but Phantom absolutely has a better drill than SCV this year. I'm not trying to rip on SCV (they are my favorite corps after all), but I'm just surprised everyone is slamming Phantom's drill. Yes, Phantom has guard issues, but I honestly believe they will be 6th (at lowest) by the end of the season. They have a horn line that can challenge the top lines and their drum line is championship worthy. Their musical scores are saving them right now - if they clean up the visual they will easily top Blue Stars, BAC and probably Bluecoats. Personally, I believe they will finish the season in 5th place, ahead of SCV too.

Id disagree. The demand in Phantom's drill is just not there. They like to fake it sometimes (as with last year, you can catch them jazz running some very small step sizes), but there isnt much demand, nor are there many points their hornline really spreads out and takes the whole field. Once i saw from the SA upper deck it became very clear. Typically theres only about 30 yards from side to side of the hornline. Compare to BAC, Blue Stars, and SCV who all make a lot more use of the whole field.

I love the story theyre telling, and as you said, their horns and drums are playing very well- the members are performing the crap out of whats been given... the problem is theyve been given a 10th-11th place design and those two factors are what are keeping them up in 8th-9th. Its still early, and plenty of time for all the corps to fix things up or roll out some rewrites.. but that window will quickly close.

All IMO.

Edited July 21, 2009 by alarson83

[chaos001]

the fat lady hasn't sung yet...

[SF2K4]

This makes me think of the last time I went AutoCrossing... for those of you who don't know what that is, it's amateur car racing on a cone-lined track using your own personal vehicle, modified or not (mine's modified, of course ).

Anyway, cars are divided into classes, from the stock 4-cylinder 1984 Honda CRX all the way up to 400+ HP turbocharged Mustangs, BMWs, WRXs, Lotus Elises, you name it, they're there. But do you know who the fastest time of the day (FTD) was?

A turbo-charged Mazda RX-8. Driven by a 17 year old.

Now, the car is boosted so yes, it is fast. But it's not in the same league as the beefed up Subarus or as nimble as the Miatas. But it's the same reason why one of the top 5 fastest cars of the day was a stock Subaru legacy:

IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CAR YOU DRIVE, IT'S HOW YOU DRIVE THE CAR.

Sure, there's a limit... my Scion tC, as much as I mod it and however good I get as a driver (hopefully pretty good eventually ), will never be able to over take that RX-8. But the fact remains, as long as your car puts you in the mix, you can take it all the way if you're good enough. Same with Phantom. It's not like these Jupiter horns are totally unable to sound good... they may not be as good as a line of Kings but as long as the quality is CLOSE ENOUGH, Phantom's brass ability will be able to push them to the top. They just have to do it.

[kevingamin]

If I'm not mistaken, BD switched to Dynasty in 2001. Prior to that they drummed on Yamaha so my educated guess would be Yamaha horns as well because most corps that march Dynasty or Yamaha use solely their equipment for everything. Though there have been exceptions like Madison in 2004 (Dynasty-brass Yamaha-drums), SCV (Yamaha-brass Pearl-drums), and Phantom.

I will say this about my personal experiences with Dynasty, they can make a good horn. I personally could do without the micro-tune system as it made me overplay the horn too often. I can make almost a two page list comparing brass manufacturers with pros and cons for all models (I'm a nerd who worked at a music store and go to TMEA often) and I would still recommend Dynasty especially if you are on a budget. I cannot speak about the Quantum brass yet other than they don't fit the hands well.

Just remember that Jupiter is a growing brand and Phantom sounds good this year, the entire corps just lacks that "oomph" in almost every caption this year. At least no corps play certain brands from big box membership stores.

BD has been on Dynasty horns since the multi-key rule went into effect in 2000. They have never played on Yamaha horns.