perc2100 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 So call me a dinosaur. I want to hear the best possible sounds I can hear on a field, and that includes a dedicated cymbal line with top notch writing. Best I ever heard was Thom Hannum, and last I heard he's still arranging for drum corps (in fact a certain bunch of guys in Madison), so I would like to see his talent on display to its best advantage, and not played as an afterthought by somebody in the pit. (No disrespect to my sandal wearing brethren.) The visuals can be a great addition too, but that's not my main concern. 1. Hannum hasn't had a cymbal line in his DCI battery ensembles in awhile (though I guess he did when he was at Crossmen in the late 90's, no)? 2. If Hannum, the person you (and many others) credit as being THE marching cymbal innovator no longer believes that a cymbal line in necessary, then why argue with him and his decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kickhaltsforlife Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 long live plates!!!!! I've always loved plates, for what they add musically and visually. I do notice them from the stands musically. I definitely hear a difference between a drumlin with plates, and a line without plates. I just like the added texture. And it is different from any texture in the pit. The reason why there aren't many lines left? I don't know, probably numerous reasons. Some writers might just not like writing parts for plates, or they aren't comfortable with it. Or maybe design teams just don't want them for numerous reasons... I don't know I can think of a lot off the top of my head but I don't feel like listing them. Personally, I think you can find a place for a plate line in any show, in any corps. I would love to see this happen... of course it is dangerous nowadays because it is so rare now in DCI, it might be hard to find people who know how to write and teach. I just think plate line are so ####### cool. And this is coming from a brass guy. Oh and about stealing things from other corps... it happens... #### Crossmen did a crab across the field with a 360 at the end... It happens... it's cool, AS LONG AS IT IS ENTERTAINING AND PERFORMED WELL!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kstein Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 1. Hannum hasn't had a cymbal line in his DCI battery ensembles in awhile (though I guess he did when he was at Crossmen in the late 90's, no)?2. If Hannum, the person you (and many others) credit as being THE marching cymbal innovator no longer believes that a cymbal line in necessary, then why argue with him and his decisions? Who says #2 is the case? Not me. I have no idea who thinks there are not enough bodies in a 150 person corps to field a 5 man cymbal line. And I have no way of knowing that Hannum thinks cymbal lines are no longer necessary. He might have been given a drum number to work with and is doing with it what he can...and perhaps not what he wants. I have no way of knowing. Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Hey, I just waved my arms in front of a few corps. I'm not a percussion expert either. However, I know that the really good cymbal lines changed grips, techniques, angles and other things my silly DM brain can't comprehend to make many kinds of sounds. And they practiced this art/skill for 14 hours a day...or whatever the typical drum corps rehearsal schedule is. I don't care if a mallet player in the pit is a percussion major in the finest program in the country; my guess is they spend minimal time on cymbals and the ways they can be played. Certainly, they don't come close to the hours and the attention to detail the great cymbal lines do.So call me a dinosaur. I want to hear the best possible sounds I can hear on a field, and that includes a dedicated cymbal line with top notch writing. Best I ever heard was Thom Hannum, and last I heard he's still arranging for drum corps (in fact a certain bunch of guys in Madison), so I would like to see his talent on display to its best advantage, and not played as an afterthought by somebody in the pit. (No disrespect to my sandal wearing brethren.) The visuals can be a great addition too, but that's not my main concern. I do think that what Madison has opted to do to their returning cymbal players by eliminating their roles - especially in this era of 150 members - is also a lousy call. Although heaven forbid one should criticize anything Madison does in this environment... Cheers! Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Ha! Can't argue with thatPerhaps we can look at it as: There are no horns in WGI There are horns in DCI There is better balance in WGI than DCI. There is better balance in WGI because there are no horns. ah but these are the same guys...the geniuses as we keep being told. surely they should have all the answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Who says #2 is the case? Not me. I have no idea who thinks there are not enough bodies in a 150 person corps to field a 5 man cymbal line. And I have no way of knowing that Hannum thinks cymbal lines are no longer necessary. He might have been given a drum number to work with and is doing with it what he can...and perhaps not what he wants. I have no way of knowing. Do you? Based on what Madison Scout's Executive Director said here: While I understand that this decision may not be popular, it is being driven by the professional opinion of those who I have tasked with the job of making the corps competitively successful. I assume "...it is being driven by the profession opinion of those who I have tasked with the job of making the corps competitively successful" refers to the Percussion Arranger and Consultant, who is Thom Hannum. I can't imagine that if Thom Hannum wanted a cymbal line, there would be one. The fact that there is no cymbal line obviously points to the fact that he does not feel one is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kstein Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Based on what Madison Scout's Executive Director said here:I assume "...it is being driven by the profession opinion of those who I have tasked with the job of making the corps competitively successful" refers to the Percussion Arranger and Consultant, who is Thom Hannum. I can't imagine that if Thom Hannum wanted a cymbal line, there would be one. The fact that there is no cymbal line obviously points to the fact that he does not feel one is necessary. Gee, and I assume that someone else is whining that the "...need to have 86 horns/50 guard/something else because nobody has ever done that before and people will love us..." And I assume it's the same guy I had to hear whining about Star "needing to have" 72 horns in 1985, which really forced some dumb choices as the year went on in order to meet and preserve the magic number. But, of course, I'm only assuming that this particular numbers decision was imposed on the staff. I have no way of knowing if that is (once again) the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldsmith1210 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I didn't want to read all of the reponses, so I appologize if this has already been said. The "head chop jump swing move" wasn't invented by SCV. Madison was doing it in the 1950's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyTenor Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Either way, I appreciated how passionately some people feel about cymbal lines back in the day. The fact is, there are less of them these days and there HAS to be a valid reason for it. So what would it be? Educate me. I'm not just passionate about plate lines back in the day. I'm passionate about them now. As for reasons? Who knows unless the staffs of the individual corps were polled. But I can make some guesses. 1) Bb/F brass - it's not as loud, so they needed the extra brass players. 2) Brass people as show coordinators dictating numbers to percussion staffs 3) Braga's not in charge 4) Cymbal players eat more on tour 5) Cymbal payers get all the hot chicks; brass players revolt 6) Ream's not in charge 7) DCI backlash against WGI cymbal excellence 8) It's easier to take a cymbal player's plates away than a guard member's saber 9) Plates - If you understand, no explanation is necessary. If you don't, no explanation is possible. 10) I'M not in charge! That's a start... Garry in Vegas Edited October 23, 2009 by CrunchyTenor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Either way, I appreciated how passionately some people feel about cymbal lines back in the day. The fact is, there are less of them these days and there HAS to be a valid reason for it. So what would it be? Educate me. I taught a WGI group that has a cymbal line, and four years ago I taught that cymbal line. It was one of the most fun years I've had in the last decade teaching a percussion unit. The cymbal members were great, learned a lot, and we took it up a notch or two (and won a few local I&E competitions as well). Just wanted to clear up my bias FOR cymbal lines before I move on to answer your question. On a football field, the awesome sound effects capable of a cymbal line easily get lost due to the large horn line and the HUGE surface area of a football stadium. Short of the cymbal staging be between the 40's in front of the front hash, and the horns playing MF or quieter, many of the cooler sound effects from a marching cymbal line get lost on the field. Many of those great WGI cymbal lines are able to be enjoyed and appreciated (and used to great effect) because of the smaller instrumentation of WGI (no horn line) and significantly smaller dimensions of a basketball court vs. a football stadium. So get rid of the cool sound effects, and what are we left with: * really cool visuals * crashes at impact points * hi-hat notes and slides As you might have already guessed, those things can indeed be created with other members of a drum corps ensemble. Do I like DCI cymbal lines. DEFINITELY. I absolutely LOVE seeing a DCI cymbal line. I do appreciate their effects and visual contribution to the corps. I remember back in the day when Cadets and Blue Devils had cymbal lines. As a teacher I totally get the educational value of a cymbal line in a corps. I appreciate that it gives an opportunity for students to gain a place in a corps and gain experience when they might not be capable enough to make another section. I appreciate the speciality of cymbal players. Some of my fondest DCI I&E memories are of various cymbal lines (one of my favorites: SCV's 1993 cymbal ensemble). I love what a cymbal line can bring to a show. But I also know that logically, I'd rather see a corps be honest with themselves and not march a cymbal line when they don't feel the need to do it, then march a half-###ed cymbal line because people want them too. If Blue Devils feel their shows can have more of an impact with out a cymbal line, I will trust them. If Thom Hannum feels he doesn't need to have a cymbal line at Madison Scouts (and I can't begin to imagine that Thom Hannum is at a point in his career where he will take a gig that he doesn't have control to have the instrumentation he wants: if there's no cymbal line at Scouts it's because Hannum doesn't feel he needs a cymbal line) I will trust that he and the rest of Scout's design team have a plan, and no cymbal line is part of their greater plan for the entire organization. I don't want to put my personal bias for cymbal lines against what Madison's administration feels is best for their organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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