The real deal

[BRASSO]

You may be right there.....however, how would the 2009 Devils fare out against the 84 Cadets if they traveled back 25 years.....you might want to check that out.......

GB

I think it's literally impossible to compare different era's. For one, the judging system has changed so radically that shows in the 70's would not have been designed the way they were.

Yes, the " tick system " is radically different from the build up system we have today. But the points are even allotted differently. The Visual Captions for instance have more point allotment per precentage of overall score. Knowing this, is't it more than likely that show designers in earlier era's would have designed shows quite differently than they did ? Of course they would have.

And the Captions are even " different ". Are the General Effect Captions the same General Effect Captions of earlier era's ? No, they are not. The General Effect Captions in terms of what constitutes superior, mediocre, and inferior GE are COMPLETELY different in terms of this criteria.... to the point that earlier era General Effect scoring has little to no resemblance to these GE captions of today....' Comparing Corps from one era to another is a foolhardy exercise as show designers design shows to maximize points from the judges based upon the judged criteria at that moment in time. And there is no way in the world a show designer from a previous era would design the shows they did with the current judging system we have.. And furthermore, there is no way in the world that Corps of today would design music shows like this if Dr. Baggs, Dr. Crawford, Dr. Opie, Donald Angelica, Larry Kerchner, etc were judging under the previous judging captions either.

Edited January 2, 2010 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

Well, I think the US Census Bureau might be a worthy place to look for comparative data :

According to the US Census ( latest, 2006), African- Americans make up 13.5 % of the US population. Hispanics and Latinos make up 14.8 % of the US population. Together, approx. 28-30 % of the American population is African- American or Hispanic-Latino.

If DCI " looked like America " this would mean that more than 1 out of every 4 current marchers in DCI Corps of today would be African- American or Hispanic- Latino.

One look at most of the units of today and it's pretty clear that few if any Corps in DCI have numbers approaching this demographic ( although Blue Devils of late look to me like they might be far and away the closest in the top 12 Corps).

The CCMC Warriors,, Carver G. Blades, H. T. Cadets, and many many Corps from the past had African- American percentages that were in the 80-90 % range. Perhaps no demographic study or data would convince you of that.... who knows. But I just named you 3 Corps that had marching member African American precentages that were over 80 %. I 'll make it much easier for you however. Can you cite us 3 DCI Corps that has had African- American percentage make up of (say ) 40% ?.....( less than the 80% I cited in the 3 Corps here as a small sample example I'm citing)

But John's statement was to compare the percentage of 'minorities' in drum corps then and now, not against the national numbers. You are right that there were corps that were almost totally black or Hispanic...primarily from urban settings...but the ones that were white and from the suburbs were usually almost totally white. Today there is more integration within the individual corps than in my day.

[Bob984]

I think it's literally impossible to compare different era's. For one, the judging system has changed so radically that shows in the 70's would not have been designed the way they were.

Yes, the " tick system " is radically different from the build up system we have today. But the points are even allotted differently. The Visual Captions for instance have more point allotment per precentage of overall score. Knowing this, is't it more than likely that show designers in earlier era's would have designed shows quite differently than they did ? Of course they would have.

And the Captions are even " different ". Are the General Effect Captions the same General Effect Captions of earlier era's ? No, they are not. The General Effect Captions in terms of what constitutes superior, mediocre, and inferior GE are COMPLETELY different in terms of this criteria.... to the point that earlier era General Effect scoring has little to no resemblance to these GE captions of today....' Comparing Corps from one era to another is a foolhardy exercise as show designers design shows to maximize points from the judges based upon the judged criteria at that moment in time. And there is no way in the world a show designer from a previous era would design the shows they did with the current judging system we have.. And furthermore, there is no way in the world that Corps of today would design music shows like this if Dr. Baggs, Dr. Crawford, Dr. Opie, Donald Angelica, Larry Kerchner, etc were judging under the previous judging captions either.

I disagree that we can't compare a show from one era to another......especially musically....it's not all about

the judging/scoring. Great arrangements and great musical performance will stand the test of time. Quality is quality. If I moved the 84 Cadets forward in time to 2009, I still think they would do well, especially in the musical captions....agreed that the visual caption would probably keep them out of the winner's circle, but it was not an easy drill even by today's standards, especially considering they were playing their a&&es off while flying movement-wise. The musical performance level was certainly box 5, and effect was off the hook. Would they lose the visual caption? Yes. Clocked in total visual? Questionable.

You imply that design has always been primarily dictated by judging systems. Bunk. Many corps designed shows that fit the style that they wished to convey, and that was deemed more important than score/placement......of course they worked to execute them the best that they could in an attempt to win, but the rest was beyond their control.......BD, SCV, Madison, Phantom, Bridgemen, 27th, and Spirit all were radically different drum corps, yet true to their style year after year, and ironically they all were fairly competitive. Selling the product to the audience was also a prime consideration, and even if you executed, you did not consider it a truly great performance unless you also blew away the crowd. I would agree that some of today's designers are more concerned about judge opinion of the show than anything else, and perhaps a reason that we will have some winning shows that few will fondly recall 5 years from now.

Totally agree that some corps would be have reason to be quite afraid if S. Opie was suddenly out there on field brass..........regardless if you used 1984 sheets or today's. And I certainly miss the musical entertainment value that Mr. Kerchner's arrangements brought to the field year after year in DCI.

GB

[JamMan]

2000s Crown and Cavies were just on fire.

Crown's still debatable. I loved their shows from 04-07, but there comes a time when the design:execution ratio can tip too far to one side and becomes unbearable.

[Newseditor44]

That is exactly what I am trying to dispel. The 70s weren't as "hard" as the blah, blah, blah..... Take the 2000s and add half the members as PURE music ROOKIES, then do your show. Tell me that isn't hard.

OK, wait a minute. A couple of questions:

1) Why does anything need to be dispelled and who exactly are YOU to dispel it? not trying to be snide, just wondering how and where you got the credentials to dispel things. I think before you can properly 'dispel', there needs to be a dispellers criteria, and since most of us know nothing about you background, it would be improper for any of us to determine if you are qualified at dispelling. Not saying that you aren't, but just covering our basis in the event that you accidentally dispel of something that should have never been dispelled of in the first place. The ramifications of that would be terrible.

2), Since you are giving us "the scoop", does this mean we can't debate, or even talk about such things anymore? Does this mean the argument is moot? Your word is final? Because if it is, I need to thank you! I think that most of us here were very tired of arguing these little trivial arguments. We don't have time for such things and honestly have been spending much too much time in thought and argument here. But since you have figured this all out, I can step away from the computer and get some real work done. This is such a relief.

3). I didn't know teaching someone who plays a baritone to play a baritone in a different key was all that difficult? I picked it up in just about a camp or so, and most others were much quicker than I... but hey, us old farts aren't as good as the new guys are. We aren't all stars, right? And I'm sure that we had to retrain all the drummers back in the day as well, unlike today.

Again, thank you so much for clearing everything up. I feel so relieved that I might get a good nights sleep tonight. Heh...

[Newseditor44]

Sorry GB, but I have to disagree with the fact the you disagree.

I disagree that we can't compare a show from one era to another......especially musically....it's not all about

the judging/scoring. Great arrangements and great musical performance will stand the test of time. Quality is quality. If I moved the 84 Cadets forward in time to 2009, I still think they would do well, especially in the musical captions....agreed that the visual caption would probably keep them out of the winner's circle, but it was not an easy drill even by today's standards, especially considering they were playing their a&&es off while flying movement-wise. The musical performance level was certainly box 5, and effect was off the hook. Would they lose the visual caption? Yes. Clocked in total visual? Questionable.

You imply that design has always been primarily dictated by judging systems. Bunk. Many corps designed shows that fit the style that they wished to convey, and that was deemed more important than score/placement......of course they worked to execute them the best that they could in an attempt to win, but the rest was beyond their control.......BD, SCV, Madison, Phantom, Bridgemen, 27th, and Spirit all were radically different drum corps, yet true to their style year after year, and ironically they all were fairly competitive. Selling the product to the audience was also a prime consideration, and even if you executed, you did not consider it a truly great performance unless you also blew away the crowd. I would agree that some of today's designers are more concerned about judge opinion of the show than anything else, and perhaps a reason that we will have some winning shows that few will fondly recall 5 years from now.

Totally agree that some corps would be have reason to be quite afraid if S. Opie was suddenly out there on field brass..........regardless if you used 1984 sheets or today's. And I certainly miss the musical entertainment value that Mr. Kerchner's arrangements brought to the field year after year in DCI.

GB

[crazymello]

Crown's still debatable. I loved their shows from 04-07, but there comes a time when the design:execution ratio can tip too far to one side and becomes unbearable.

It is true, but they ARE getting cleaner. I mean, if their design kept getting better and they were kind of complacent with execution, I would be concerned, but I am satisfied with the progress they make from year to year.

[IllianaLancerContra]

Sorry GB, but I have to disagree with the fact the you disagree.

Have you ever heard a recording of one of Ms Opie's Argonne horn lines?

If nothing else it proves that g V-R bugles CAN play in tune.

[84skyrydr]

OK, wait a minute. A couple of questions:

1) Why does anything need to be dispelled and who exactly are YOU to dispel it? not trying to be snide, just wondering how and where you got the credentials to dispel things. I think before you can properly 'dispel', there needs to be a dispellers criteria, and since most of us know nothing about you background, it would be improper for any of us to determine if you are qualified at dispelling. Not saying that you aren't, but just covering our basis in the event that you accidentally dispel of something that should have never been dispelled of in the first place. The ramifications of that would be terrible.

2), Since you are giving us "the scoop", does this mean we can't debate, or even talk about such things anymore? Does this mean the argument is moot? Your word is final? Because if it is, I need to thank you! I think that most of us here were very tired of arguing these little trivial arguments. We don't have time for such things and honestly have been spending much too much time in thought and argument here. But since you have figured this all out, I can step away from the computer and get some real work done. This is such a relief.

3). I didn't know teaching someone who plays a baritone to play a baritone in a different key was all that difficult? I picked it up in just about a camp or so, and most others were much quicker than I... but hey, us old farts aren't as good as the new guys are. We aren't all stars, right? And I'm sure that we had to retrain all the drummers back in the day as well, unlike today.

Again, thank you so much for clearing everything up. I feel so relieved that I might get a good nights sleep tonight. Heh...

Snide aren't we, but then again its to be expected here. I believe I put IMO, but might have missed those three keys. What is your training to call out others. Did you get a degree in it from some unknown university? Lastly, to switch to a different instrument is one thing, but I am personally aware of 40-60- kids who marched and played for the first time ever in the corps I marched. NO TRAINING except ON THE JOB. Go be snide in someone else thread, this was a light hearted attempt at shutting down some of the useless verbatim about whos generation was harder, I wish they could have taught you how to read with understanding at your "university", by the way, I am an old fart.

[BRASSO]

But John's statement was to compare the percentage of 'minorities' in drum corps then and now, not against the national numbers. You are right that there were corps that were almost totally black or Hispanic...primarily from urban settings...but the ones that were white and from the suburbs were usually almost totally white. Today there is more integration within the individual corps than in my day.

Not really. I see no change at all in the overall ethnicity ( or gender ) in the Cavs, Scouts, for instance. The members have changed, but the overall breakdown of ethnicity and gender is exactly the same as in was in ( say ) the 60's. The Troopers, Boston appear to have integrated a bit more. Blue Devils for sure. Cadets however look about the same. Phantom Regiment looks the same. SCV looks the same. Bluecoats the same. Glassmen the same., Crossmen the same. Blue Knights the same, and so forth. Yet, the predominently all Asian, All Black, all Hispanic units have pretty much all disappeared. Thus, as a percentage of minorities marching in the DCI activity today, it appears to me that it might be about the same low numbers, but more likely there is actually less diversity in the overall DCI activity. But you are correct that there is no data to bolster or refute one's position on this. So we are let with one's personal perceptions as to whether or not there is more diversity, or less diversity in the overall activity today compared with earlier eras. I wlll agree with anyone that suggests that there are more females marching as a percentage of marchers compared to earlier eras where males outnumbered females more sigificantly in the overall activity as a percentage. And I believe that Asian- Americans probably have increased their overall percentage of marchers a tad in the activity compared to earlier eras. But without any research studies by DCI re. the demographic make up of their activity, we are pretty much left to guesswork on this.

Edited January 2, 2010 by BRASSO