Cavaliers Hornline

[Jeff Ream]

Lol, thats a stupid thing to say, why should'nt they be given credit for difficulty in the visual department? They march circles around every corps in the activity while playing books that aren't the hardest but arent the easiest. Crown for example, sure they can play a hard book and play loud, but have you seen their visual package? There is a good reason other corps are louder than the Cavaliers, they all go for half the package and make a nice CD while the Cavaliers go for the whole package and make a nice DVD.

because some years, it seems like they play a lot less ( amount of time, and maybe notes too) yet pop huge scores.

at some point, the visual demands become more of the commentary than the actual performance, and I think the activity in general has gone there

[Cop]

because some years, it seems like they play a lot less ( amount of time, and maybe notes too) yet pop huge scores.

at some point, the visual demands become more of the commentary than the actual performance, and I think the activity in general has gone there

I concur. (no hate)

Edited January 31, 2010 by Cop

[Rochester New York]

Well I have to believe that many here who have NEVER heard a sound like that of the 1979 Spirit of Atlanta have only books to help them comment on this subject... I was in the stands at DCI prelims in Birmingham Al when Spirit of Atlanta came on... Now bear in mind that many of my friends were Blue Devils at the time so I was jaded in terms of who I thought was the best and the loudest! Well I was very wrong...

When Spirit came on I have to admit that although they were doing a good job of staying in tune, that it was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but... THERE WAS NO WAY TO HEAR THE PERSON NEXT TO YOU YELLING IN YOUR EAR AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS!!! If you have never felt this then you do not understand the impact that an AMAZINGLY LOUD hornline can produce... The stands were silenced by the hornline and after the cut off in Georgia it took the crowd a few seconds to realize what they had heard and then we were all on our feet screaming for more... Again if you have never experienced this I do not think you could possibly understand... I have seen most every major corps somewhere or another since that day, and have not felt that feeling since then... You could not feel or hear the crass or any issues but you were literally pushed back in your seat and there was NO WAY to concentrate on anything but what was happening to you!

So IMO to say that a corps does not need to be loud is all fine and good but there is a major piece of the impact puzzle missing without volume. Oh and I also agree with the earlier comment that the attack, intonation and release are all very important parts of that puzzle too!

THANK YOU for saying this, more eloquently than I would have. Yes, it seems that there are many people on DCP who haven't experienced what you described. I didn't hear Spirit in 1979, but there are other shows (Phantom 96, BD 97, SCV 98, and CAVALIERS 2000!) that I still remember, and can remember my HEART FEELING LIKE IT WAS BEING SQUEEZED FROM INSIDE. And no, those corps were "crass and out of tune" AT ALL. They were loud AND in tune AND focused AND projecting. And it was incredible.

[euponitone]

Lol, thats a stupid thing to say, why should'nt they be given credit for difficulty in the visual department? They march circles around every corps in the activity while playing books that aren't the hardest but arent the easiest. Crown for example, sure they can play a hard book and play loud, but have you seen their visual package? There is a good reason other corps are louder than the Cavaliers, they all go for half the package and make a nice CD while the Cavaliers go for the whole package and make a nice DVD.

If you really think the cavaliers still march circles around everybody, fine, but you wont find that many people to agree with you. In particular, this past year, crown and cadets moved A TON, and played like crazy while doing it. Besides, noone said they shouldnt get any credit for the difficulty of their visual package, just that they shouldnt get as much. Ideally if they marched like crazy but didnt play much, marching scores would be higher and music scores would be lower, but we all know what kind of bleed over their is between captions now.

Oh, and geaux Saints

[BMBob]

It's simple: Many many many drum corps fans think that crass and unbalanced = loud. Therefore well balanced and good tone production is inferior in terms of volume. It's just a difference between pretending to know anything about pedagogy and really knowing it.

And for an argument on volume, you really need to hit up the 2005 closer again. Knock your socks off energetic and loud loud loud.

I don't think that it's so much that people think crass and unbalanced = loud. I think it's the fact that two groups playing at the same decibel level can have dramatically different sounds. The type of intensity produced by a group can give it a different feeling, which is as true at low dynamic levels as it is at high ones. I think that the Cavaliers have done a great job of playing loudly with a very controlled sound, but having a little bit of "pressure" or "push" to the sound can give it a louder "feeling." Compare the fff dynamic levels of the Vienna Philharmonic, the Berlin Philharmonic, and the Chicago Symphony. It's the same idea, and it's a personal opinion as to which someone prefers.

If we're talking pure volume, then 2002, 2003 and 2008 stand out as being significantly quieter than the corps before / after them.

Mike

I think this is very true.

because some years, it seems like they play a lot less ( amount of time, and maybe notes too) yet pop huge scores.

at some point, the visual demands become more of the commentary than the actual performance, and I think the activity in general has gone there

Yup. This is the one thing that has gotten to me. I find some of the performances a little too "theatrical." If all of the fancy visual stuff was done while playing, or at least while someone in the brass section was playing, I might feel differently, but it always seems like....."Ok, we have a great idea for something that looks cool, so we're going to take 45 seconds off and have you listen to percussion while we run/jump around." I always think the visual is cool, but I thought the moving/playing were supposed to work together.

[mobrien]

THERE WAS NO WAY TO HEAR THE PERSON NEXT TO YOU YELLING IN YOUR EAR AT THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS!!! If you have never felt this then you do not understand the impact that an AMAZINGLY LOUD hornline can produce...

It's the same thing at a Metallica concert, I imagine.

("Really Loud" is nice, but it's a little overrated as a musical feature, I think.)

I WAS there for Spirit '79, and while it was loud, and generally in tune for the instruments of the day, the horn charts were middle school level in comparison to what any corps on the field is playing today (the concert number had the most difficulty - but it was played at standstill). No disrespect to the staff or members, but there wasn't a lot in the way of intricacies in the writing, and the drill, as was common in the day, was slow moving and simple, which made it relatively easy to inhale and blow.

The difficulty level across the board has dramatically increased in the last 30 years, and the level of musicianship has increased with it. If the trade-off for "really loud" is "better quality and more demand", I'll take that trade-off.

Edited January 31, 2010 by mobrien

[BRASSO]

except you can be in tune and balanced and be loud as hell. see Crown the last few years, Phantom 08, and many, many others.

I know this kills the whole "loud is out of tune argument", but then again, it hasn't always been a valid argument anyways

Exactly. People who think " loud " is naturally " out of tune " have either been taught incorrectly, or simply never learned that volume is unrelated to " tone " and " balance ". While caution is required in order to not tip the balance and become " crass " and " out of tune " when playing " loud ", playing " loud " in of itself does not naturally become bad playing due to loudness. In Drum Corps, and most other music playing, there can be enormously " loud " playing by the musicians, yet the musicians with skill can all be in tune and in proper balance.

[audiodb]

I WAS there for Spirit '79, and while it was loud, and generally in tune for the instruments of the day, the horn charts were middle school level in comparison to what any corps on the field is playing today (the concert number had the most difficulty - but it was played at standstill).

That may be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read here. Have you ever even heard "Nuttville" a la '79 Spirit? Please let me know what middle school could possibly replicate the soprano feature midway through that song, so that I can relocate there and get my offspring into their music program.

[BlooContraGuy]

I'm kind of an oldie, but I have a question about this. What difference does it make if a corps is loud vs not loud? Does a not-as-loud corps mean they're not as appealing? I'm always curious to find out what the generations before/after me think of this. I marched in the late 80's/early 90's and played in some loud hornlines. but since I've been a spectator on the other side (almost 18 years now) I have found that whether it's "loud" or not, doesn't and shouldn't matter at all. I listen for clean lines, integration from horns to drums to visual and chords that are in tune and balanced. Whether it's loud or soft doesn't matter to me, personally.

I ask this since it comes up on this forum all the time. I'm not a huge cavalier fan, but they get dumped on a lot for not playing loud... according to many people. But what does that mean? so what if they don't play loud, so long as it's good and high quality. Has there ever been a topic started about a corps playing too loud? Or has this community gravitated towards an opinion that loudest is best and anything less is mediocre - thus worth starting a topic on?

Trust me, I have read many of the opinions and discussions on this topic through the years, but what gets thrown around all the time are comments regarding "quality over quantity" or something along the lines of it being a different philosophy. Obviously this is a place to discuss our opinions but I get so confused on this particular subject because I cannot seem to find a reason to find fault in any corps or staff for what people consider to be "soft" or conservative playing.

My favorite moment in drum corps history was the last 30+ seconds of the 2002 cavaliers ballad. I don't know, or care, how loud they played on a dB level or in comparison to other corps, but I was emotionally stunned by what I heard. I had not been to a DCI finals in about 4 years at that time, but that was the "loudest" drum corps experience I've ever had to date. I have a lot of respect for the cavaliers and I love what they have done in the past 10 years. Not my favorite shows year after year, but boy, they are amazing and I look forward to hearing them no matter what they play.

All I can really say about that is, well, I do notice and really do appreciate technicality in playing... BUT the things that gets me to get up and scream are impact points (done well). That means, the music is arranged well and the players exude a high level of musicianship by being aware of balance, tone, intonation, but are also pumping out the volume. An impact moment of a show is just not an impact with out that punch in the gut feeling, or the overwhelming sense that nothing else matters but how AWESOME the corps in front of you is playing. Honestly, that is why I come back to music, drum corps, and anything like this; Because when I'm watching or playing a show, it makes all problems go away for about 12-15 minutes. And that kind of escape is a beautiful thing in my mind.

Anyway, dynamics are part of the music, and if you don't play the dynamics correctly, its just like missing a note. THEY MATTER.

theyre going with Karl Hammond this year instead

Good choice.

yes. If Carolina Crown (chosen b/c they won high brass last year) opened up in a horn arc, but they were only half as loud as they are, what would you think? I would think they were lame.

Do you think chord progressions are just as fun to listen to at half volume? I don't.

Actually, some progressions sound quite amazing at softer volumes. I love the transparency of sound and clarity of every note and chord member when progressions are played delicately. This is of course my opinion.

They typically have a very clear sound. Not sure what else to say about it.

I second this.

I'm going to add something. I read these forums daily though I don't post often and I am sure I cannot post youtube videos. I am a huge fan of Phantom Regiment and I have been since the 80's. I just watched a video online of regiment warmup finals lot 2009 playing canon & firebird and its about a one min vid.

I was a trombone guy and don't know much about high brass or what it takes to play horn/trumpet but when the mellophones play their long note at the :24 mark of that video, I just have to turn it off because it sounds absolutely horrid to my ears. I assume this is what makes a lot of people get up and cheer. For me, I just want to plug my ears. yes it is LOUD!!! but there seems to be no quality and no control in the sound and for a finals day warmup, I can't think of a more opposite direction to go with your sound in this activity. I know it's just a youtube video and it would be better live but that's just what I hear a lot when I see live shows.

I mean no disrespect to the regiment corps staff or members. They are still and always will be one of my favorites! But just as some have talked about how they are not in agreement with the approach to brass playing by cavaliers in recent past, I am not a fan of many of the louder and out of control sounds that I hear when it comes to finals. to each their own, of course. :)

Yeah, I had to warm up listening to that... A whole lot more than I would have liked.

Edited January 31, 2010 by BlooContraGuy

[Lance]

Exactly. People who think " loud " is naturally " out of tune " have either ...

I'm pretty sure exactly nobody thinks that.

I think the "you think anything loud is out of tune" spiel comes more from people who can't stand that anybody would dare say anything negative about, say, Phantom 03's brass, which was very loud and fervently adored. So, many attempt to reduce anybody's criticism of that hornline sounding gross to "you just think anything loud is out of tune/crass/unbalanced/etc".

Phantom 08 was equally loud, and beloved by many as well. But they sounded amazing throughout.