Official DCP G7 Proposal Discussion Thread

[Michael Boo]

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

--- Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche is dead.

---God

[Plan9]

The economy may be responsible for a slight decrease in attendance but not the much smaller crowds of recent years. Drum corps has survived many recessions and it didn't seem to cause any major attendance declines in the past. Looks at the finals crowds of the late 70's, no decline there, maybe even an increase and we had a terrible economy not to mention a gas shortage. When people are forced to cut back they will do so but they will also find a way to do many of the things they feel passionate about. Given the choice of drum corps or something else many people have chosen the something else. The economy while not great, is now the excuse for everyting that isn't going well.

Pretty good argument. I don't completely agree, but there is merit to it. IMO the drum corps shows I've seen in the last several years are some of the best ever put on the field, so the product sure as hell isn't the problem. I still say, it's partially the economy, other personal entertainment options (not availale in the other decades), and failure of DCI to be aggressively pursue High School Music programs to the degree G7 is proposing. The other G7 proposed venue nuances seem a step in the right direction. Go professional.

[markdewine]

I started thinking of an analogy to the G7 situation, and likewise an analogy to the responses from DCP'ers.

So, the analogy is that for each of us, our home (drum corps) IS ON FIRE !!!!! A BLAZING INFERNO!!!

And here's the analogy to the responses.....

"Who started the fire?"

It was George!

Oh, that's a shame.

It will probably burn to the ground. Too bad. It was a nice house.

Maybe we could build a new house with some old ideas!

That's a stupid idea! People HATE old houses!

(my favorite, from the kool-aid drinkers) Oh, it's okay. I have more wood in the attic!

Wow! They actually got rid of the fire chief?

Man!!! That sucker's really burnin' !

Yup, the other 6 poured the gasoline, and 'you-know-who' threw the match.

'course I've known for years he liked to play with matches.

He was just trying to "Light the Way."

Fine...let it burn. I don't care.

Well, really, it was spontaneous combustion. Started smolderin' way back when they brought in amps and stuff. I seen the smoke. I cried, "FIRE!", but nobody believed me.

Well, MY house is better than YOUR house! SO THERE!!!

PEOPLE!!! When are we gonna quit standing around gawking at the fire, and DO SOMETHING???

What would YOU, personally, be willing to do to help preserve drum corps?

Me? I would help any fledgling young drum corps within a 100 mile radius, with marching basics. Free.

No charge, no ego, no BS...just help to an activity that needs all the help it can get.

[2000Cadet]

Army Rangers. So you know, I'm mental.

I should add.....retired!

BOOO!!

I'm Navy...and still active.

[garfield]

Pretty good argument. I don't completely agree, but there is merit to it. IMO the drum corps shows I've seen in the last several years are some of the best ever put on the field, so the product sure as hell isn't the problem. I still say, it's partially the economy, other personal entertainment options (not availale in the other decades), and failure of DCI to be aggressively pursue High School Music programs to the degree G7 is proposing. The other G7 proposed venue nuances seem a step in the right direction. Go professional.

Plan9, I have a question regarding your perspective. Your roots are in Blast!, right? That's a pretty recent event. And do I understand that you took that excitement back and built a great band program with an eye to what you'd seen.

I don't remember you mentioning your actual DC show attendance history, though. Did it begin after your Blast experience? And what year was that?

I only ask these things because you seem to be the exact fan that the G7 is going to want to grow. That is, those with a history of the electronified, whiz-banged, synthed productions they visualize.

I wonder if you have the perspective with which you can claim that the G7 performance model is the better one.

If you have an exposure to DC shows then you might very might, and I'm not contending "you don't have the experience to have an opinion".

I, on the other hand, have seen both worlds first hand. The "old days" and the "new, electronified days". I feel I have a good basis upon which to honestly answer which one is better for me.

I'd just like to know your perspective when I read your (sometimes very funny, sometimes very aggravating) posts.

Please don't take offense. I really want to know.

[70sxmenbass]

The more I read here, the more I'm looking forward to going to Rochester on Labor Day weekend.

Edited May 26, 2010 by 70sxmenbass

[IMcomguy]

Hold up, let's cut the crap out of this whole thing for just one second and speak reality and what this is all REALLY about...

Kool-Aid.

Let me ask you about a couple of other things manifested by the same people (sorry, individual) largely at the helm of this entire thing. And then let me ask you about the success of those items now...

Bb/Multi-keyed horns were aimed at including more talent and making the high school band demographic more accessible, thus raising the participation rate and aiding in the sustainability of more drum corps overall. Yet have we seen the number of corps increase or decrease in the past decade?

Amplification was added on the basis that the activity was "constantly evolving" (and for whatever reason people could no longer hear the pit), so we needed to market the shows to a new generation of fans (bandos) that would accept the activity with open arms. Those same targeted fans have also watched these corps blow tens of thousands of dollars on needless mixer equipment, amplifiers, mics, and often times increased transportation requirements because of this... and all because we could increase attendance and include more people in the activity. Did it work? And was it a fiscally responsible decision?

Mics with human voice was also aimed at the above purpose, to evolve and include more diverse membership talent, more interesting shows for the fans, and ultimately increase attendance. We all saw how well it worked for The Cadets in 2006 when this capability was overused, abused, and a miserable failure with the fans. Overall, do you think this worked to achieve its intended goal? Was it a fiscally responsible decision?

Membership limits were increased to 150 members so more things could be accomplished with the colorguard (quoted from GH himself)."Imagine a decorated field of 60+ guard members! Imagine the possibilities!" he quipped in his blog. Yes, and also imagine the increased transportation expenses, food expenses, insurance needs, and everything else that tows along with it. And also imagine those corps at the bottom rung of "World Class", or shall I say "AA" or "A" tier in his mind, that couldn't keep up with this new limit to remain competitive due to financial reasons from increased fuel costs or other things. This was also intended to "increase corps membership" (not establish a "supercorps" mentality by any means, no no no) and to enhance the creative possibilities as mentioned above. Has this really worked? Has it enhanced the activity where we've seen increased participation? Have more corps popped up or disappeared since this was originally proposed? Has anyone in their right mind, including "the man" himself, ultilized 60 colorguard to this day?!!?!

Woodwinds? Well, I'll give you this one. For the 27th straight year it was shot down, yet somehow was creatively introduced into the drum corps activity this year via a backdoor with the allowance of "illegal instrumentation" for up to 5 minutes of pre-show. Oh wonderful.

Let me ask you something else, how did that quadrupling of the GE panel work out? That lasted for a whole year before they decided it was a HUGE waste of money.

While I admire the passion of the guy at the head of this all (and the puppet he dragged along with him at the end of this truly enriching Powerpoint presentation), what exactly makes you think the intentions of this are fiscally responsible or financially sound at all? A few years ago, YEA was at the brink of extinction before they dumped the Crossmen and finally made USSBA a viable entity again. They have less than 5% of their revenue in "reserve" (floating between $200 and $300K in the bank) with millions in revenue all while people are on here chastising DCI for having less than a half a million in storage. Oh please.

Have you taken a look at the history of DCI financials? I have. Grab a membership to Guidestar.org. Have we also taken a look at their 2009 990's? No we haven't, because they aren't publicly available. Word from some very reliable people say they're in EXCELLENT shape after 2009 compared to where they were the previous year (remember the big decision to pack up and move to Indy in '08? Take into consideration that ~$3 mil shortfal, plus the fallout from the LOS/Bloomington debacle).

And seriously...

Do you REALLY support this rock concert mentality that this proposal wants to breed? 20 minute shows? Warmup Zones?? In stadium pre-shows (up to an hour and a half, with 30 minutes on the field by one of the corps), then additional pre-shows for everyone?? Stadium Interaction with fans?? NFL films "video hyping", a "NASCAR interaction area", an "Entertainer Announcer" (think WWE or Boxing), "Instant" encores?? "Cirque"ish "fan hype"?

The sad part is I'm not making ANY of this up as it's coming straight from the proposal.

Finally, I think this seals the deal for me...

10% of the score at both this "Tournament of Champions" and also DCI Championships made up of FAN PARTICIPATION via "Text message"???

Is this all a big joke? Did I miss April Fools day? Somebody punch me or something. How many people over the age of 35 or 40 do you think will honestly text in (or even know how to text) their scores? Why risk the credibility of the scoring and world class adjudication panels we have by throwing in the uneducated opinions of fans, and one that is of a (most-likely) ignorant demographic?

I'm not even going to rant about the egos, greed, and "our way or no way" mentality of this document.

Well prepared? Not even close. Unprofessionally written, unprofessionally presented, and a horrible way of wanting this to go over smoothly with DCI itself or its membership. Be honest with yourself here, this was probably thrown together by Hopkins who threw it to Gibbs via e-mail and said "hey look at this, should I post it to my blog?" Then they most likely talked with their director friends in passing and pushed to include them without them even approving of it (see: Cavaliers).

I love that people can be loyal to their own group(s), I really really do, but when it comes at the expense of others, that will never be OK with me. NEVER. And unfortunately, that is exactly what the majority of this entire thing entails. Not a coup? Riiight, look up the definition.

The bottom line here for me... if this is accepted anywhere or by any organization other than the G7 voting amongst themselves in some alternate reality, then I've lost all hope for humanity. They can try all they want to grab two votes per G7/AAA member (creating an unbreakable vote), they can try to hoarde all the money they want, they can run their own rock concerts with woodwinds, overthrow executive directors, catch the DCI membership off guard, and of course setup NASCAR interaction zones, "instant encores" and "text vote" scoring...

But guess what?

None of this will ever float with the current DCI membership. And for that, I am ECSTATIC.

[garfield]

Hold up, let's cut the crap out of this whole thing for just one second and speak reality and what this is all REALLY about...

Kool-Aid.

Let me ask you about a couple of other things manifested by the same people (sorry, individual) largely at the helm of this entire thing. And then let me ask you about the success of those items now...

Bb/Multi-keyed horns were aimed at including more talent and making the high school band demographic more accessible, thus raising the participation rate and aiding in the sustainability of more drum corps overall. Yet have we seen the number of corps increase or decrease in the past decade?

Amplification was added on the basis that the activity was "constantly evolving" (and for whatever reason people could no longer hear the pit), so we needed to market the shows to a new generation of fans (bandos) that would accept the activity with open arms. Those same targeted fans have also watched these corps blow tens of thousands of dollars on needless mixer equipment, amplifiers, mics, and often times increased transportation requirements because of this... and all because we could increase attendance and include more people in the activity. Did it work? And was it a fiscally responsible decision?

Mics with human voice was also aimed at the above purpose, to evolve and include more diverse membership talent, more interesting shows for the fans, and ultimately increase attendance. We all saw how well it worked for The Cadets in 2006 when this capability was overused, abused, and a miserable failure with the fans. Overall, do you think this worked to achieve its intended goal? Was it a fiscally responsible decision?

Membership limits were increased to 150 members so more things could be accomplished with the colorguard (quoted from GH himself)."Imagine a decorated field of 60+ guard members! Imagine the possibilities!" he quipped in his blog. Yes, and also imagine the increased transportation expenses, food expenses, insurance needs, and everything else that tows along with it. And also imagine those corps at the bottom rung of "World Class", or shall I say "AA" or "A" tier in his mind, that couldn't keep up with this new limit to remain competitive due to financial reasons from increased fuel costs or other things. This was also intended to "increase corps membership" (not establish a "supercorps" mentality by any means, no no no) and to enhance the creative possibilities as mentioned above. Has this really worked? Has it enhanced the activity where we've seen increased participation? Have more corps popped up or disappeared since this was originally proposed? Has anyone in their right mind, including "the man" himself, ultilized 60 colorguard to this day?!!?!

Woodwinds? Well, I'll give you this one. For the 27th straight year it was shot down, yet somehow was creatively introduced into the drum corps activity this year via a backdoor with the allowance of "illegal instrumentation" for up to 5 minutes of pre-show. Oh wonderful.

Let me ask you something else, how did that quadrupling of the GE panel work out? That lasted for a whole year before they decided it was a HUGE waste of money.

While I admire the passion of the guy at the head of this all (and the puppet he dragged along with him at the end of this truly enriching Powerpoint presentation), what exactly makes you think the intentions of this are fiscally responsible or financially sound at all? A few years ago, YEA was at the brink of extinction before they dumped the Crossmen and finally made USSBA a viable entity again. They have less than 5% of their revenue in "reserve" (floating between $200 and $300K in the bank) with millions in revenue all while people are on here chastising DCI for having less than a half a million in storage. Oh please.

Have you taken a look at the history of DCI financials? I have. Grab a membership to Guidestar.org. Have we also taken a look at their 2009 990's? No we haven't, because they aren't publicly available. Word from some very reliable people say they're in EXCELLENT shape after 2009 compared to where they were the previous year (remember the big decision to pack up and move to Indy in '08? Take into consideration that ~$3 mil shortfal, plus the fallout from the LOS/Bloomington debacle).

And seriously...

Do you REALLY support this rock concert mentality that this proposal wants to breed? 20 minute shows? Warmup Zones?? In stadium pre-shows (up to an hour and a half, with 30 minutes on the field by one of the corps), then additional pre-shows for everyone?? Stadium Interaction with fans?? NFL films "video hyping", a "NASCAR interaction area", an "Entertainer Announcer" (think WWE or Boxing), "Instant" encores?? "Cirque"ish "fan hype"?

The sad part is I'm not making ANY of this up as it's coming straight from the proposal.

Finally, I think this seals the deal for me...

10% of the score at both this "Tournament of Champions" and also DCI Championships made up of FAN PARTICIPATION via "Text message"???

Is this all a big joke? Did I miss April Fools day? Somebody punch me or something. How many people over the age of 35 or 40 do you think will honestly text in (or even know how to text) their scores? Why risk the credibility of the scoring and world class adjudication panels we have by throwing in the uneducated opinions of fans, and one that is of a (most-likely) ignorant demographic?

I'm not even going to rant about the egos, greed, and "our way or no way" mentality of this document.

Well prepared? Not even close. Unprofessionally written, unprofessionally presented, and a horrible way of wanting this to go over smoothly with DCI itself or its membership. Be honest with yourself here, this was probably thrown together by Hopkins who threw it to Gibbs via e-mail and said "hey look at this, should I post it to my blog?" Then they most likely talked with their director friends in passing and pushed to include them without them even approving of it (see: Cavaliers).

I love that people can be loyal to their own group(s), I really really do, but when it comes at the expense of others, that will never be OK with me. NEVER. And unfortunately, that is exactly what the majority of this entire thing entails. Not a coup? Riiight, look up the definition.

The bottom line here for me... if this is accepted anywhere or by any organization other than the G7 voting amongst themselves in some alternate reality, then I've lost all hope for humanity. They can try all they want to grab two votes per G7/AAA member (creating an unbreakable vote), they can try to hoarde all the money they want, they can run their own rock concerts with woodwinds, overthrow executive directors, catch the DCI membership off guard, and of course setup NASCAR interaction zones, "instant encores" and "text vote" scoring...

But guess what?

None of this will ever float with the current DCI membership. And for that, I am ECSTATIC.

I'm with you, completely. This is exactly how I feel. Outstanding post.

(Will you marry me?)

Now, what are we going to DO?

[chaddyt]

Let me ask you about a couple of other things manifested by the same people (sorry, individual) largely at the helm of this entire thing. And then let me ask you about the success of those items now...

Ya' know... reading through the threads on this forums over the years, it's getting harder and harder to believe that Hopkins truly isn't superhuman. With everything people attribute solely to him, it's like he's Professor X with his mutant mind-control ability.

[2000Cadet]

Ya' know... reading through the threads on this forums over the years, it's getting harder and harder to believe that Hopkins truly isn't superhuman. With everything people attribute solely to him, it's like he's Professor X with his mutant mind-control ability.

I was thinking the same thing (sort of).