An interesting Lewisburg review

[DCC]

It's interesting how people try to read so much into what we post here.

I meant no criticism of the Bucs or anyone else. They are very good, and people like them a lot. I was simply making some observations based on what I witnessed in the way of crowd reaction from where I sat. They were not comatose during the performances any of the three corps that were on the field while I was in the stadium, including Reading. I noticed a marked difference in the crowd's enthusiasm following Empire's performance. If anyone cares to disagree it's fine with me, but that's how I saw it.

Yes, the people were entertained, and that's why the average 'novice fan'/non-member comes to the shows. I just want to see that continue. The financial viability of these contests depends on it. Corps and judges shouldn't forget that.

Fair enough. I guess I was kind of replying to a bunch of different opinions posted by others instead of just your post. I don't think you meant any criticism of the corps.

[DJayTpt]

So I was recently at the Lewisburg show and I decided to bring along a relative of mine to show them what this activity was that I enjoyed so much.

This person has seen another drum corps show that I took them to a few years ago, but is definitely not a drum corps expert. Outside of marching band halftimes this person rarely sees the marching arts, but is a big supporter of music in general. I did my best to explain the basics of the drum corps medium to them. So I would say that this review is from the eyes and ears of a general person who doesn't know the sheets, but does know what entertains them. I thought it was interesting enough to include here. This is my paraphrasing of what our conversation was after the show had concluded. Again this is not my review but rather that of someone else to give an outsiders perspective.

Bushwackers - They are small, but I can see what they are doing. I think their show would sound better if they had more people. They have a very interesting show and I get the concept.

Hurricanes - Deep sound with some interesting music. Very colorful presentation. Interesting idea for a show although a little harder to follow and it doesn't flow like some of the other shows. Not the best "high points" as compared to the other corps.

Empire Statesmen - Oh my goodness! Loved the entertainment value. The story was awesome to follow which made the show much more enjoyable. Familiar music with a lot of big impact and wow moments. Colors were very nice although the "flags" (color guard) could have been better. Very fun to watch.

Buccaneers - A very nice program, however noticed a few drops from the "flags" (color guard) that took away from some of the high moments. Good sound overall and the marching was very good. Show flowed fairly well but didn't tell as good of a "story" as Empire.

Caballeros - Loved the mask ideas and the color change in the "flags" at the end. Interesting concept of a show, using different masks throughout the show and different sounds and tempos throughout. Marching wasn't as good as some of the others. Extremely big sound and beautiful solo.

Their prediction of the outcome

1. Empire

2. Cabs

3. Bucs

4. Hurcs

5. Bush

Again leave the flames at home, these are not my thoughts but I thought it was interesting to see what the "general public" would think about the shows this year. Good luck to everyone the rest of the way.

Thanks for sharing that review!!! It's REALLY SAD that even an honest/unbiased/innocent review from someone in the "general public" as everyone keeps saying matters so much is now turning into a bash Reading thread. Enjoy the review, people!!! You don't see many of these and let's keep them coming!!!!! Thanks again Nose!!!

[BigW]

HAHA ... this is so funny ... I vividly remember a GE judge in 80 or 81 saying " ... the crowd is in a frenzy and seems to be enjoying the show very much but, I can't let that affect my opinion of your performance ... yada ... yada ..."

:-)

This was past 80/81. Heck, I was marching against you at that time.

This was early/Mid '90's era where I'm certain that's the way things were done.

If the performer is selling the show, regardless of quality, the number has to be put where it should be based on the back of the sheet. You could say, "You're selling and making it happen, I think you might do even better if it were a bit cleaner, but hey- it's still happening!"....

There are a ton of other people worried about technical quality on the panel. You really don't need to worry about it that much on effect. Sometimes, something can be done so incredibly well it becomes effective, too. The Cavies live and die by that concept.

That's a whole other discussion, but if the show works, the show generates effect, you have to apply what you observe to the back of the sheet and to the score. Looking at the Recap, Empire isn't out of the ballpark in Music Effect. Visually, that's where the hole really opened. There, the Hurcs aren't out of it, either. Nor should they be. The real issue is coordination and ensemble, which used to wash across every sheet in one way or another, and my guess is that it still does. Does the ensemble play with balance, not only between the specific percussion and brass sections, but across the ensemble? How well is the visual package integrated with the music and vice versa? THAT is where Reading digs out its advantage. Everyone else has a thing here and there that doesn't have that kind of synergy to the level Reading does. And again- if the sheets read like they used to-- and I think they well may in that aspect- it's making a difference.

[elphaba01]

HAHA ... this is so funny ... I vividly remember a GE judge in 80 or 81 saying " ... the crowd is in a frenzy and seems to be enjoying the show very much but, I can't let that affect my opinion of your performance ... yada ... yada ..."

:-)

"Can't Let That Efect etc":

Oh so true THEN and so VERY TRUE NOW!!!!

Elphaba

WWW

[ajlisko]

This was past 80/81. Heck, I was marching against you at that time.

Nah ... I was just on staff at that time ... my competitive era was a decade before in DCA ...

:-)

[BigW]

"Can't Let That Efect etc":

Oh so true THEN and so VERY TRUE NOW!!!!

Elphaba

WWW

A Judge does have a serious issue when dealing with crowd reaction. It primarily manifests itself at band shows. You can usually smell it a mile away when the band turns around and all of a sudden, a patch of people who were dormant for the last hour and a half hit the cowbells and go potty. THAT has been one of the reasons judges of late are utterly fearful of letting a crowd reaction become a serious issue with their final determination. It's hard to tell sometimes who are homers and whether the reaction is genuine.

1982 Grand Prix, the Meadowlands:

Westshore took the field and the instant we were announced, 5-6k of fans, mostly for Sky and hoping we broke our unbeaten streak, booed their arses off. Should THAT have affected the show's end result, in that we won regardless of whether the crowd was instantly hostile no matter what the hell we did?

That's the big issue. Who knows how many plants are in that audience to affect the reactions? You really need to be listening and paying more attention to the show, not trying to constantly gauge if reactions are genuine or fake. Is one or more of the corps performing in a home turf situation? That can also make a difference, too. I worked for a band director who coached his parents on when to react during the show. It was subtle. It made a difference.

A couple of years ago, I staffed a band and tried a little trick when they performed at Championhips. I sat in the stands looking like any guy or typical Band Dad, not looking like a staff member behind most of the crowd on the 48. When there was something that happened that was well-done and an appropriate moment, I started to applaud. A LOT of the audience went along like sheep. It certainly helped the kids a ton with their confidence and performance. What's not to say a DCA corps can't have plants in the audience to drive crowd reactions as well? I've done it! It's not hard to do! For all I know, if the right person reads this, you can thank me for the idea later!

Sometimes, it's obvious whether the crowd reactions are genuine, and it should be noted accordingly. It DOES happen.

On the other hand, sometimes the crowd sits on their hands for a great moment (particularly in band if a band did not bring their 48979376 parents and cowbells because it was a long trip). Should I dock that band or corps because they're in front of people who obviously don't care one whit about anything but their own people and don't know how to appreciate a daggone thing beyond their kids or corps and don't care to?

Judges have to be fair, they have to read a crowd, and act accordingly. And really, the judge should have as their primary goal and focus watching and listening the show itself and what's actually going on in the performance itself rather than trying to constantly gauge a crowd reaction for its sincerity. To do otherwise isn't what they're paid or being truly asked to do from the member corps.

Edited July 22, 2010 by BigW

[VOReason]

Looking at the Recap, Empire isn't out of the ballpark in Music Effect. Visually, that's where the hole really opened. There, the Hurcs aren't out of it, either. Nor should they be. The real issue is coordination and ensemble, which used to wash across every sheet in one way or another, and my guess is that it still does. Does the ensemble play with balance, not only between the specific percussion and brass sections, but across the ensemble? How well is the visual package integrated with the music and vice versa? THAT is where Reading digs out its advantage. Everyone else has a thing here and there that doesn't have that kind of synergy to the level Reading does. And again- if the sheets read like they used to-- and I think they well may in that aspect- it's making a difference.

Agreed. Yeah...I know...I have yet to actually SEE a show (believe me I KNOW), however I made a comment regarding Empire's visual book on these boards right after viewing the YouTube postings of their program. The drill, doesn't have a lot of movement, doesn't particularly seem to support the music very well and stops a lot...sometimes in places where the show just begs for movement. An example (unless they've already made changes) is the ending of The Wiz which just begs for mondo visual. The good news is that the horns/music sounded pretty darn good, even for June and I had the feeling that if they could keep it close in percussion, while winning the horns/music effect captions, Empire might be able to offset the spread Reading appears to be opening in visual. Unfortunately, based on Lewisburg recaps, that is not the way this appears to be working out. I thought, and still think that visual design will cost them the championship much like it cost MBI last year. But hey...as long as John Q. Public loves them, I guess they will be happy.

Oh yeah......FREE TOM D'BOMB!!!

Edited July 22, 2010 by VOReason

[LegalEagle50]

[Fran Haring]

HAHA ... this is so funny ... I vividly remember a GE judge in 80 or 81 saying " ... the crowd is in a frenzy and seems to be enjoying the show very much but, I can't let that affect my opinion of your performance ... yada ... yada ..."

:-)

"Seems to be" enjoying the show... I love it.

[coloradocorp]

However, I did get a good read on crowd reaction from where I was. If the the crowd had a say, or if the General Effect were tied more to crowd reaction, then the prediction of "The Nose's" relative is pretty much they way it would have gone. It seemed to me that the crowd liked Reading a lot, but appeared to enjoy Hawthorne more, and they absolutely loved Empire. My question is this -- wasn't there once a provision on the G.E. sheets, a sub-caption in G.E. where crowd reaction was a consideration, and not just the way the show appealed to the judge? Am I remembering some kind of ancient history, or worse, imagining such a sub-caption? I'm not looking to stir up controversy. Just curious.

John

I was not at the show, but have seen the you tube clips of the Cabs Alumni show at Lewisburg - curious that no one commented on that performance, but when you talk 'entertainment' the Cabs Alumni spell it with all CAPS. What a great, enjoyable show in every aspect including crowd reaction.

As to crowd reaction being factored into score sheets - there have been quite a few iterations of caption alignments over the years. For those who can recall 'way back' GE ( including showmanship and wow factor to the crowd ) counted for more than execution in some areas such as Upstate NY and Canada. That's not to say that the judges always factored in crowd reaction factor. I recall being in a show in Toronto in front of about 20K fans - we got louder ovations than the hometown Optimists which was a great show corp. We came in second to Opti and the Canadian crowd booed like crazy and we were from Jersey. Fans deserve better than what they get today - certainly in terms of judging results.

DCI and to a lesser degree DCA caption scoring is geared totally to the judges liking a show from a musicians and artistic standpoint - the entertainment factor for the crowd is a non event. I'll take a Cabs Alumni show composition of 'classic drum corp' over a DCI ( or some DCA ) show of something on the order of 'lament of the sleeping lambs' or whatever else they might call their original composition shows in a given season. Most fans want to be entertained and not have to have a degree in musical or art forms in order to 'get' a show.

Using the Cabs Alumni example - 'rumps' charging off the line this year is a perfect example of electrifying and entertaining a crowd who are paying the money to be entertained versus being limited to a few wow moments of today's corps however stunningly superb the brass lines might be - and there are some magnificent DCI lines out there today for sure. I doubt any DCI corp gets your 'foot tapping' these days.