World Class Scores as of July 23

[geluf]

Not to kill all the BD talk and such....

...but I want to say that I think it's awesome how corps like Crown and Bluecoats are now able to hang with corps like Cavies, BD, Cadets, Phantom, SCV, etc.

10 years ago, you'd have gotten weird looks if you said those two corps would be yearly threats to finish in the top 5.

It tells me that you *can* move up in this activity.

[rayfallon]

92 already? Jesus

Jesus actually got an 86.4...

Some issues jazz running on water I think...

Good horns... knocked down a wall in Jericho...

[Plan9]

Plan9, thanks. I really do try and be as balanced as I can on here, because I used to be pretty darn biased against BD, but I'm trying to learn to be balanced, and find good in all the corps. BD 2000 and 2004 are still two of my favorite shows. That's the BD I love. And I completely understand how you feel about your corps having the negative light shined on them, and again, I applaud the fans like you who stand by their corps through all of this, and choose to defend them instead of abandoning them when the dissenters show up. It really shows well to your character to stand by an organization, and really shows how much drum corps can create a lifelong tie to people, a group that they will always stand by. Thank you for that.

But, I would like to see #2 more. I do see lots of responses that are like that, but a lot of it does come off more than a little bit arrogant, sorry. I've seen a fair share of posts where guys are just saying that everyone hates them because they win, my ring is bigger than your ring, etc.... (I exaggerated that last one, but I have seen people reference how their wins gives them more credibility than others), and stuff like this. I do see where some of it comes from, but a little bit less arrogance might be nice. It turns people off even more when they see alums and fans being more self-centered than any of the members.

Well now we're getting somewhere!

I notice you used the word "come off" which gets to the heart of the problem on DCP and other cyber exchange sites. Not unlike our discovery here, which revealed that we are not so different and that when we put our claws away, our preconcieved notions and assumptions, we might even learn something from each other. I know I have. But the perception of arrogance is what you're talking about here. And in this environment...perception is real. That goes back to my original question of how BD fans should respond.

Last night, for instance, while trying to watch the Houston live feed I was seeing the Facebook live chat which can be informative at times. What it turned in to was a place where "a few" (and I admit it only takes a few) posters could not post without some reference to BD and what a crock it all was that they were winning. I call them "therapy threads", where these angry souls can vent. Now imagine they're talking about your family or your work or your team or something that you love and are mocking and insulting them in a crowd of people. Made even worse by the tone of the thread, where BD's performance was preceded by some of the nicest and most complimentary comments for every other corps (there was an occasional critcisim but nothing malicious). You could see it coming, like the tide...every other comment (particularly for Cavies and Cadets who are competive with BD) was laced with nasty references and attacks at the judging system or props or whatever. A brave few BD supporters ("G", my hero) responded, but for the most part it was a free for all. NOTE: the moderator did make attempts to cool their jets but it was uncoolable.

So....into this environment the BD fan attempts to respond (mostly respond...because there are not a great deal of pro BD threads popping up). To that end, I have chosen to respond in a humorous manner (occasionally smart ###...because that's the nature of my wit). But speaking for myself, it is always done with the greatest respect for the other competing corps. I never find value in tearing down the competition...it's cheap and thoughtless. NOTE: As a soldier I learned that respecting your enemy, can save your life.

Bottom line: I will continue to attempt #2 if the individual is willing to engage in civil exchange. And I will respond with dry wit to those that are unable to converse without venom. Either case, I won't let bad comments stand unanswered, afterall I spent 27 years defending all of our rights to do it. And thanks for responding.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Plan9

[2000Cadet]

THIS IS MY RIFLE!!!

[jwscv87]

When I explain CI to the unwashed, and say it this way: "In order for [corps X] to [break CI], they'll have to be 2 points better to [win] by a tenth."

That's what happened in 2008. PR was 2 points better, but BD had all of the CI going in. In times of CLEARLY BETTER, sometimes the smallest margin is all that's left when CI is so strong.

Once again, 2008 adds credence to the HOW TO BREAK CI's GRIP (be 2 pts better to get a tenth) [which I don't talk about in the CI article, but I'm compelled to talk about it in my other life, away from this board.]

The judges have to almost feel embarrassed sometimes, in order for things to change. The judges would've been embarrassed had PR not won in 2008. Lucky for them, PR was a former champion, so it's all good. Had PR been Bloo or Crown, it WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

PR was 2 pts better?!?!? Deserving champion, yes, but not close to the clear superiority you suggest. I think your theory loses credibility when you use such subjective, absurd comments to explain how it "works".

[Jeff Ream]

Well now we're getting somewhere!

I notice you used the word "come off" which gets to the heart of the problem on DCP and other cyber exchange sites. Not unlike our discovery here, which revealed that we are not so different and that when we put our claws away, our preconcieved notions and assumptions, we might even learn something from each other. I know I have. But the perception of arrogance is what you're talking about here. And in this environment...perception is real. That goes back to my original question of how BD fans should respond.

Last night, for instance, while trying to watch the Houston live feed I was seeing the Facebook live chat which can be informative at times. What it turned in to was a place where "a few" (and I admit it only takes a few) posters could not post without some reference to BD and what a crock it all was that they were winning. I call them "therapy threads", where these angry souls can vent. Now imagine they're talking about your family or your work or your team or something that you love and are mocking and insulting them in a crowd of people. Made even worse by the tone of the thread, where BD's performance was preceded by some of the nicest and most complimentary comments for every other corps (there was an occasional critcisim but nothing malicious). You could see it coming, like the tide...every other comment (particularly for Cavies and Cadets who are competive with BD) was laced with nasty references and attacks at the judging system or props or whatever. A brave few BD supporters ("G", my hero) responded, but for the most part it was a free for all. NOTE: the moderator did make attempts to cool their jets but it was uncoolable.

So....into this environment the BD fan attempts to respond (mostly respond...because there are not a great deal of pro BD threads popping up). To that end, I have chosen to respond in a humorous manner (occasionally smart ###...because that's the nature of my wit). But speaking for myself, it is always done with the greatest respect for the other competing corps. I never find value in tearing down the competition...it's cheap and thoughtless. NOTE: As a soldier I learned that respecting your enemy, can save your life.

Bottom line: I will continue to attempt #2 if the individual is willing to engage in civil exchange. And I will respond with dry wit to those that are unable to converse without venom. Either case, I won't let bad comments stand unanswered, afterall I spent 27 years defending all of our rights to do it. And thanks for responding.

part of the problem is that smart ### online comes off as arrognat. I understand why.

but congratulations....BD has made the Cadets a crowd favorite and far less abused than at anytime in 2005-2008. I didn't think I'd ever see that

[Plan9]

part of the problem is that smart ### online comes off as arrognat. I understand why.

but congratulations....BD has made the Cadets a crowd favorite and far less abused than at anytime in 2005-2008. I didn't think I'd ever see that

I'm glad that BD could be of service! But again, that wascally "crowd" word...I just don't see how you do it, it must be a gift!

On another note Jeff, I bet if you think about it, there is no way a smart ### comment coming for a fan of a winning corps (any winning corps) can sound any different than arrogant...no way. It's positional, not intentional. In other words, you are superimposing that arrogance on to their comments....there's no defense for that! Then it's simply a battle for the hearts and minds of DCP (sad of an objective as that might be). And IMO that is why "the crowd", or "most fans", or "everyone" is used so often in anti-BD sentiment. On one side: measured empirical data (judges scores) & on the other side descriptions of mass approval or disapproval (unmeasureable), the other side has no other recourse but to create some other measurement to offset scores.

This squaring off of competing corps fans was palpable last year between CC and Cadets. It got ugly during some of their head to heads last year on DCP. For a BD fan it was actually amusing to watch and not be the target (just like your comment above).

[Jeff Ream]

you're wrong. many fans of winning corps can and do come off as sounding not arrogant. it's all in the delivery, and online, that's tricky.

But Plan..and I do like you..if you have had one consistent complaint since you became vocal on here, it is that you are condescending to those that don't throw the burning babies at BD. Now, I see thru a lot of the complaints, but at times here is SOME merit to it. Just as some folks who go back at you can come off the same way.

hey, I'm a member of the least popular DCA champion of all time, so I know how you feel. go to the DCA forum, mention Westshoremen 1996 and watch the #### fly

so, if and when I do choose to reply about it ( as i'll defend my title to the death) i either reply with humor or cold hard facts. Between us, you do neither. Yu reply with the zeal of a die heard BD parent...and that's cool. I respect it.

But it also comes off as arrogant and condescndning at times, especially with the token broad strokes of labeling anyone not a BD fan as a hater.

however...I'd say that, IMO, and from reading what others here say,....BD is not as universally loved as you wish to claim. as DCIMoneky said, that many people can't be wrong. but when looking at it thru your blue rose colored glasses, I can see how you feel.

and like I said, you guys have replaced the Cadets as DCP's most hated corps.

I'll be in Allentown and Indy, and i'll gladly comment in my reviews what my impressions of the crowd are. I'll bet now Allentown won't be as baby throwing as Indy ( natural bias to the Cadets of Allentown and some old school Crossmen love left). But...a hunch...Indy won't be as baby throwing as the West Coast would be. In fact i guarantee had 07 been in the midwest, the Cadets hatred would have been less, all hashgate aside.

so..while you attack those for using wide strokes, be careful of the ones you also use...and you do

[decompressed]

PR was 2 pts better?!?!? Deserving champion, yes, but not close to the clear superiority you suggest. I think your theory loses credibility when you use such subjective, absurd comments to explain how it "works".

I think the original poster had a point but it applies more to the younger corps. A group like Pioneer or Teal or Pac Crest often needs traction from those one or two judges that will put them ahead and then others follow suit. Those corps do indeed need to be points better to eke out by tenths over a more established WC corps. This is the nature of subjective opinions. When we taught Crossmen 2000, all it took was for one show for the corps to edge out Madison and then we never lost to them the rest of the year. The reality is...other judges saw the numbers and gave pause. Judges follow suit and that is an unfortunate by product of the activity. Without judges critiques now, it becomes harder for those developing corps to do what they need to do to improve. Just look at the numbers and you'll see that the green shirts low balling the younger corps is having a "trickling up" effect and minimizing movement by the corps in that 16 - 18 range.

If judges would use the sheets as they are clearly trained to do and value the meaning of a tenth of a point in a subcaption as they should do, then these issues would be less transparent. Sadly, i guess you have to pay your dues in DCI before you get credit, especially if you are a new kid on the block.

AS always...my 2cents

[Hook'emCavies]

THIS IS MY RIFLE!!!