DCW article regarding touring . . .

[audiodb]

Oh how did drum corps survive back when most corps were regional, and didn't have to look to DCI for sustenance? How EVER could grownups have volunteered time and effort and rounded up 50 or 60 kids to perform in a drum corps that was focused on weekend performances and part-time rehearsals when DCI wasn't there to make sure they were being taken care of?...

Spare me the sarcasm. We all know how we got where we are. In some cases, DCI and the corps to which you refer mutually agreed to have DCI take over the operations of a local or regional circuit. In other cases, the corps might not have been 100% in mutual agreement, but it still took place.

As a result, DCI now administers the local/regional levels of the North American junior corps activity. In that context, casting off that responsibility at the whim of seven self-appointed 'top corps' would (to say the least) NOT be conducive to growing the number of corps.

Corps that have no reason for touring nationally would do well to provide the backbones of stronger regional associations rather than tagging along and being programmed as filler in local shows. Does that sound heartless? Tough. This is still a business, and corps without the resources to mount first class campaigns to compete should consider whether their members and funders would be better served by being strong regional corps rather than also-rans on the national tour.

Actually, I am in strong agreement with you on this paragraph, the way you describe it here. But there's a lot to be done to recreate a healthy regional operating model.

The devil is in the details.

1. We can't hold a gun to the heads of open-class corps directors and force them to stop touring. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. The recruiting draw of some of these corps relies upon that travel to the DCI World Championships, and it does them little good to save money on the trip if they lose so many members that they can't field.

2. With the elimination of regional circuits, the focus on fixed-location regional championships was discarded. Large events run by independent sponsors have been done away with. There are no more focus events for open-class. The World Opens, U.S. Opens, AIOs, DCEs, DCMs, DCWs....events that local/regional corps could plan toward as focus events for their seasons, need to be re-established before regional operating models can have the same allure they once had.

3. Fact is, an open-class corps gets an appearance fee for "tagging along" at a DCI tour show, and they don't get one for appearing at an open-class show. I'm surprised they don't "tag along" more often than they do. If you want that to stop, you have to change the pay incentives.

[JimF-LowBari]

Oh how did drum corps survive back when most corps were regional, and didn't have to look to DCI for sustenance?

Helluva lot cheaper back then and a single sponsor like a Post or Church could afford to support a smaller corps. What's forgotten in the mix is it's expensive as Hell to keep even a small non-touring corps alive today. Even harder if you're not in an area that does not pay for parades which is a God send for Northeast corps.

[Jerseyboy]

“Can we figure out how to become what Dave Gibbs [executive director of the Blue Devils] would call ‘relevant?’ Can we figure out how to be relevant again to a large enough community that they’ll be willing to support us?” he said. “Is it enough to go out there and do the shows that we do now or do we have to have a corps be more interesting? Do we have to have something in the pre-show? Do we have to have a post-show or special encores that are fun?

“And do we have to mandate that the corps are entertaining -- I mean, really entertaining, like audience-wise?” he continued. “Do we have to stop with the artistry and force-feed the fact that those corps that get a standing ovation are going to win this thing -- if that’s what it’s going to take -- instead of perhaps those corps that take an artistic route, that we’re not maintaining an audience because people aren’t that interested in the classical, creative, avant-garde approach.

“I’ve been a part of all of that and I’ve been a part of it for a long time. The question for me, at least, is ‘Are we able to do that?’ ”

Hopkins isn’t sure that’s happening right now, enough for people to part with $25 or $30.

“And that’s when you have to acknowledge the model’s broken,” he said. “You don’t even want to pay $25 for a local show. The corps are losing money to be at that show. We’re being paid less than it costs for us to be on the road. So if the sponsors don’t want to pay any more for us and tickets don’t want to pay anymore for us and we’re not getting paid enough, it’s a problem.”

--------------------------------------------------------

If it costs more to go to a show than what you are making lower your costs .

I hear these directors saying what we want to hear but when it comes time to score during the summer we get shows like the last 2 BLUE DEVILS SHOWS.

HOW CAN HE USE GIBBS RELEVENT QUOTE WHEN THE BLUE DEVILS ARE ANYTHING BUT RELEVANT ?

When was he last time the CADETS were ? Not last season. that was embarrassing .

1992 ,1993 ,2000 , and any WSS. . thats 5 shows in 20 years.

what about Crown last season ? Artiststic or entertainment ? to whom ?

If Cavies won the title in 2010 would corps design different ?

Crown in 2009

Phantom in 2008 was when I thought we turned the corner on entertainment.

2007 everybody was bad but the BD

2006 Cavies pure entertainmnet.

2005 THE CADETS SHOW THAT STARTED THE SPIRAL. NON fan friendly as you can get. Fans were screaming at these kids.because of the design team. Is that what we teach ?

Blame the judging community for putting these corps in the championship spot.

Blame the designers for going for points instead of entertaining.

The G7 talk a good game every winter but when design comes around they revert back to the ARTISTIC approach every time.

MIRROR MIRROR

[ContraRich77]

“Can we figure out how to become what Dave Gibbs [executive director of the Blue Devils] would call ‘relevant?’ Can we figure out how to be relevant again to a large enough community that they’ll be willing to support us?” he said. “Is it enough to go out there and do the shows that we do now or do we have to have a corps be more interesting? Do we have to have something in the pre-show? Do we have to have a post-show or special encores that are fun?

“And do we have to mandate that the corps are entertaining -- I mean, really entertaining, like audience-wise?” he continued. “Do we have to stop with the artistry and force-feed the fact that those corps that get a standing ovation are going to win this thing -- if that’s what it’s going to take -- instead of perhaps those corps that take an artistic route, that we’re not maintaining an audience because people aren’t that interested in the classical, creative, avant-garde approach.

“I’ve been a part of all of that and I’ve been a part of it for a long time. The question for me, at least, is ‘Are we able to do that?’ ”

Hopkins isn’t sure that’s happening right now, enough for people to part with $25 or $30.

“And that’s when you have to acknowledge the model’s broken,” he said. “You don’t even want to pay $25 for a local show. The corps are losing money to be at that show. We’re being paid less than it costs for us to be on the road. So if the sponsors don’t want to pay any more for us and tickets don’t want to pay anymore for us and we’re not getting paid enough, it’s a problem.”

--------------------------------------------------------

If it costs more to go to a show than what you are making lower your costs .

I hear these directors saying what we want to hear but when it comes time to score during the summer we get shows like the last 2 BLUE DEVILS SHOWS.

HOW CAN HE USE GIBBS RELEVENT QUOTE WHEN THE BLUE DEVILS ARE ANYTHING BUT RELEVANT ?

When was he last time the CADETS were ? Not last season. that was embarrassing .

1992 ,1993 ,2000 , and any WSS. . thats 5 shows in 20 years.

what about Crown last season ? Artiststic or entertainment ? to whom ?

If Cavies won the title in 2010 would corps design different ?

Crown in 2009

Phantom in 2008 was when I thought we turned the corner on entertainment.

2007 everybody was bad but the BD

2006 Cavies pure entertainmnet.

2005 THE CADETS SHOW THAT STARTED THE SPIRAL. NON fan friendly as you can get. Fans were screaming at these kids.because of the design team. Is that what we teach ?

Blame the judging community for putting these corps in the championship spot.

Blame the designers for going for points instead of entertaining.

The G7 talk a good game every winter but when design comes around they revert back to the ARTISTIC approach every time.

MIRROR MIRROR

This post effectively killed any and all credibility you HAD or may EVER have in my eyes.........Not that I think you really care, but there it is.

"2007 everybody was bad but BD"????

Do you even GO to shows?????? WHY is a person such as yourself even involved in drum corps? Seems to me all you get out of this activity that we all love so much is a throbbing headache.

Methinks you should be ingesting aspirin instead of DCP traffic.

[ContraRich77]

I really grow weary of the waah waah cry #### and moan attitude of the folks who could be helping instead of whining.

FYI Tony...........#### is actually a five letter word, spelled thusly: #####.

Glad I could help

[jjeffeory]

Uh huh. To test your theory, consider that the Quarterfinals moviecast is advertised with trailers at movie theaters all summer long. People who saw Iron Man 2 and The A Team, etc, etc, were all being exposed to the trailer when they went to go see their action movies.

How many of those people do you think showed up in August at the movie theater? Few, if any. Was it because they looked at a very exciting collection of snippets, and thought "I bet there's a show in there with some discordant music - I think I'll take a pass"? Yeah, probably not.

It appeals to those to whom it appeals. Considering that mainstream art forms like symphonies, live theatre, and art museums are still considered "niche activities" among the general public, it's a little presumptuous and a lot wrong to believe that if the "inaccessible" shows today were simply turned into...uh....what? -DCI's 1980s lineup of programs? - that all of a sudden, you'd have 30 million people pounding down the gates to buy tickets to their local show.

If you want to increase the size of the audience, work to increase the number of corps, since the audience for drum corps was and always has been those who have marched and those whose friends and families are marching today. The show designs have next to nothing to with it, but a less expensive, more localized form of competition for lower tier and mid-tier corps could (something that WAS part of the original G7 proposal, btw).

Good point, but as a counterpoint, I would ask how many people go to the "other" shows that are advertised in the theaters after seeing those clips? I think those are good for people who are already inclined to go ( knowing the time and date), but may not be as effective on potential casual people as you assume. That may not be the best venue to get someone excited. Also, the product isn't really being sold. It's an image that is being showed. I don't think DCI quite hit the mark. I go to many movies and people are walking into the theater and generally not paying attention to the screen during that portion of the "event".

Edited November 8, 2010 by jjeffeory

[Jeff Ream]

well thought out. i findmyself agreeing a lot

The key words from Hopkins are: Can we figure out how to be relevant again...

I have read the posts on this thread and arguments about the touring model, judging, etc, that are totally missing the point.

what the ^&%$ is the product?

Obviously, it's one most people aren't buying.

AND, it all hinges on the music, not the drill or choreogrpahy or what ever it's being called at the moment. Yes the drill is pretty, and yes it looks very hard to do, but if people can't follow the music, they punch another button.

It's very simple.

Last night I was at the reunion of my corps. A stage band was created four years ago populated mostly by vets of the corps and a few from other corps. They played arrangments of tunes from one of the parent corps from the 70s, and arrangements from the other from the late 60s and early 70s - and one tune from the era I marched in. (note to Ron Allard - only Ontario from the 71 show got left out).

My girlfriend, with no exposure to drum corps of any kind until I met her, turned to me and said - this really does send a chill up the spine.

No drill, no uniforms, no football field.

It happened to me too. Fantastic arrangements (by Steve Bailey) made it a night to remember.

This same person (my girlfriend) has been a work in progress to get her tuned into some of what my life has been. She doesn't get DCI of the modern era, not at all, She somewhat gets the 70s and 80s because she can follow the music (I think she's just lacking the live exposure). She really liked the corps at Rochester because for the most part thay played complete tunes - not snippets. By the way, she's an artist and a museum designer whose work you've likely seen; she gets sophpisticated very well.

But she loved the, to quote a previous poster, bad ### arrangements of the stuff she heard last night.

When I started corps in 1970 there were lots of peripheral fans who had no direct involvement. They just went to shows and got entertained. Today they get bored real quick and I can't get them to reconsider another shot at the experience.

It took talent to play Legend of the One Eyed Sailor or any other tune you want to pick from back in the day, and I can count the music majors I marched with on one hand - but it took a lot more talent to make an arrangement that scored well and entertained the schlubs who don't know a blown attack from an off-key note. Us schmucks put out a quality product with quality arrangements.

Today, we have better quality musicianship but much poorer arrangements that do not please the majority of people.

Start putting out a quality, entertaining product musically and things will turn around.

So, what does that mean? Abandon classical? Not on your life. Drum corps, specifically Vanguard and Regiment turned me onto classical music. Thanks to Devils and Del I like jazz. Sorry, no corps did a thing for imputing an appreciation of country music in this boy's life, but I hope you get my point.

Tone down the artistry? No. Does anyone think there is no artistry involved in replicating MacArthur Park as Madison did? If you think not, then there's isn't much to discuss.

Change the sheets? Qualified yes. Put more emphaisis on performance and less on design and that will add grease to the wheel. Take back some points to the music from drill too. Continue to be creative drill people, and show me how you can wow me within the context of a whole song. What you collectively do now, while on the technical side is creative, taken as a whole its disconnected and as choppy as the music is.

Dilute the competition. Are you crazy? We live in the most competitive society in the history of the world. As a marching member, I and my buddies lived for the scores each night. Why because they reflected what we did, not what someone did in a study room in February. If our score went up, it meant we played better, not wrote better. If you want to kill any hope of maintaining a steady recruiting base, take out the competitive aspect.

As to the avant guard stuff, small doses keep the variety quotient up, but two hours worth, no thanks. Even ten minutes is too much.

Oh, and people back in the day really love drum solos. Average people. Today every drum break sounds like the last and it's gone in the blink of an eye. When did drum solos become the ######## child of DRUM CORPS?

I'd like to add that I like a lot of the arrangments being done today. My tastes run to a more sophisticated atmosphere, but I don't have my head so far up my butt to think everyone will get off on it as much as I do.

Regards,

John

[Jeff Ream]

Because Marching Band is part of the school system... IT USED TO BE FREE and helped feed drum corps ranks. Now it costs in excess on $1,000.00 to put your kid through HS band for a season. After that are you going to pay for DCI dues and tour fees? The easy access to band has killed drum corps as much as anything else. NO ONE CARES ABOUT INSTRUMENTAL DIFFERENCES EXCEPT FOR US OLD FOGIE DRUM CORPS SNOBS... SO it is ALL band to everyone on the outside.

I really grow weary of the waah waah cry #### and moan attitude of the folks who could be helping instead of whining. And if you have stopped going because you don't like it anymore... Great for you...It is too bad that drum corps has to hit on all cylinders every time for you. I just bet you have spent money on a concert you were dissapointed to see... I just bet you spent money on a movie you hated... So are you now a hermit who goes nowhere and does nothing because you cannot take the bad with the good? If this is the case please avoid using anthrax and the U.S.Mail system...

except he still goes

[kmansdrummin]

I think people would like to have music, or a production that would have them tapping their foot instead of scratching their head. I liked the kind of programs I could understand, and loved the ones that made me think "Wow!! How did they DO that!!" (SCV 1974 Young Person's Guide), instead of "Why in the hell did they do that??" (Cadets 2005 drumspeak) which I as a drummer found appalling.

It's like "I understand it, who cares if the average person doesn't. He/She just doesn't know...". Total disregard for the audience. That's what this is about, putting seats in the seats.

I feel the need for all the amps, narration, and everything in the pit, is the fact that there were no more ideas/creativity with what was already there. Change for the sake of change isn't alway's a good thing. (Be careful what you wish for...)

Unfortunately there are people who need to prove a point with narration or electronics at the expense of the kids. (Cadets in past years.) The narration took away from an otherwise great performance, especially in 08 (cadets).

I know saying this I will be perceived as a dinosaur, and may be shot down, but if everything that's being done has been successful, then why is this thread going on? People won't buy a product they don't like.

I went to Quarterfinals and took someone who is new to Drum Corps. She loved the Cavies and Bluecoats, but thought the others were OK. She made simple observations like how the whole corps were together, (uniforms and such).

It would be nice if some people would keep it simple, instead of trying to "Wow" the public with something they don't understand.

And try to keep the balance between Music and Movement. There's a lot of fast movement with a mishmash of notes. Bring back substance with the style. And as a drummer, I would love to see some of the really cool stuff played in the parking lot on the field instead of everybody playing the same thing while they are moving around for a drum break.

Just my two cents. And thank goodness for these discussions. It would be far worse if a lot of people quit caring.

[byline]

The key words from Hopkins are: Can we figure out how to be relevant again...

I have read the posts on this thread and arguments about the touring model, judging, etc, that are totally missing the point.

what the ^&%$ is the product?

Obviously, it's one most people aren't buying.

AND, it all hinges on the music, not the drill or choreogrpahy or what ever it's being called at the moment. Yes the drill is pretty, and yes it looks very hard to do, but if people can't follow the music, they punch another button.

It's very simple.

Last night I was at the reunion of my corps. A stage band was created four years ago populated mostly by vets of the corps and a few from other corps. They played arrangments of tunes from one of the parent corps from the 70s, and arrangements from the other from the late 60s and early 70s - and one tune from the era I marched in. (note to Ron Allard - only Ontario from the 71 show got left out).

My girlfriend, with no exposure to drum corps of any kind until I met her, turned to me and said - this really does send a chill up the spine.

No drill, no uniforms, no football field.

It happened to me too. Fantastic arrangements (by Steve Bailey) made it a night to remember.

This same person (my girlfriend) has been a work in progress to get her tuned into some of what my life has been. She doesn't get DCI of the modern era, not at all, She somewhat gets the 70s and 80s because she can follow the music (I think she's just lacking the live exposure). She really liked the corps at Rochester because for the most part thay played complete tunes - not snippets. By the way, she's an artist and a museum designer whose work you've likely seen; she gets sophpisticated very well.

But she loved the, to quote a previous poster, bad ### arrangements of the stuff she heard last night.

When I started corps in 1970 there were lots of peripheral fans who had no direct involvement. They just went to shows and got entertained. Today they get bored real quick and I can't get them to reconsider another shot at the experience.

It took talent to play Legend of the One Eyed Sailor or any other tune you want to pick from back in the day, and I can count the music majors I marched with on one hand - but it took a lot more talent to make an arrangement that scored well and entertained the schlubs who don't know a blown attack from an off-key note. Us schmucks put out a quality product with quality arrangements.

Today, we have better quality musicianship but much poorer arrangements that do not please the majority of people.

Start putting out a quality, entertaining product musically and things will turn around.

So, what does that mean? Abandon classical? Not on your life. Drum corps, specifically Vanguard and Regiment turned me onto classical music. Thanks to Devils and Del I like jazz. Sorry, no corps did a thing for imputing an appreciation of country music in this boy's life, but I hope you get my point.

Tone down the artistry? No. Does anyone think there is no artistry involved in replicating MacArthur Park as Madison did? If you think not, then there's isn't much to discuss.

Change the sheets? Qualified yes. Put more emphaisis on performance and less on design and that will add grease to the wheel. Take back some points to the music from drill too. Continue to be creative drill people, and show me how you can wow me within the context of a whole song. What you collectively do now, while on the technical side is creative, taken as a whole its disconnected and as choppy as the music is.

Dilute the competition. Are you crazy? We live in the most competitive society in the history of the world. As a marching member, I and my buddies lived for the scores each night. Why because they reflected what we did, not what someone did in a study room in February. If our score went up, it meant we played better, not wrote better. If you want to kill any hope of maintaining a steady recruiting base, take out the competitive aspect.

As to the avant guard stuff, small doses keep the variety quotient up, but two hours worth, no thanks. Even ten minutes is too much.

Oh, and people back in the day really love drum solos. Average people. Today every drum break sounds like the last and it's gone in the blink of an eye. When did drum solos become the ######## child of DRUM CORPS?

I'd like to add that I like a lot of the arrangments being done today. My tastes run to a more sophisticated atmosphere, but I don't have my head so far up my butt to think everyone will get off on it as much as I do.

Regards,

John

Fabulous post, John, There's just not a lot I can add to that, except that my hubby is much the same as your girlfriend. How I wish we could hop in a time machine and go back to 1980. I keep hoping that Madison will bring that sound back so that he can really hear what I have heard. This past season was a start.