glory Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 This question is based on naivety on my part because I don't understand the whole rationale behind formation of TOC shows. Because there are some awesome "non TOC" groups- do you think they will be slotted at Finals to prove these 8 are the top groups, as a face saving measure? Just wondering if the top 8 have been selected......... All due respect, but it is naive, even silly, to suggest such a thing. The results will not be manipulated. The best corps will be recognized as they always are. If they happen to be the TOC eight, that will be as it should be. If others climb into the top eight, that will be as it should be too. Though we quibble with the judges' assessments each season, so too do we ultimately concede we agree with their placements with few exceptions. This year will be no different but for naive, silly assertions of TOC conspiracies where there are none. HH 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Well (to me at least) revealing the Emperor's New Clothes kind of suggests a shocking revelation. I don't think there's going to be any sort of impermeable boundary between the TOC participants and other finalists. I think both the number and the static nature of the TOC corps has more to do with logistics than anything else. The format of the shows sets an upper boundary for participants (based on time) and the need to work out a schedule months in advance dictates that the participants are set in advance of the season. IMO beating a TOC corps will be no harder (or easier) than it was in the past. As for the top 12 / finals boundary, some years it seem there's a clear difference between 12 and 13(or 13-14 or 13-14-15) and some years the difference seems completely arbitrary. I don't necessarily agree there's a conspiracy but I do think sometimes judging comes down to little more than preference. corpsband, we probably agree on this more than you think. No, I have never bought into judging conspiracy theories, but my DCI experience goes back to the 70's, and I think there IS a subconcious stratifying of corps by some adjudicators who may in fact have no idea they are prone to it. Just look how order of appearance can affect a show's results. I was with BAC during the beginning of the 09 tour, where Phantom had a sizable lead on Crown and a huge lead on both Blue Stars and BAC. As I mentioned earlier, they eventually got it right, but the mere fact that the first four or five panels had it so terribly wrong is evidence, imo, that SOME judges DO judge on expectations. The TOC could well play into that. I will add that I think this ia a good conversation to have.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkfdPRphan Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 corpsband, we probably agree on this more than you think. No, I have never bought into judging conspiracy theories, but my DCI experience goes back to the 70's, and I think there IS a subconcious stratifying of corps by some adjudicators who may in fact have no idea they are prone to it. Just look how order of appearance can affect a show's results. I was with BAC during the beginning of the 09 tour, where Phantom had a sizable lead on Crown and a huge lead on both Blue Stars and BAC. As I mentioned earlier, they eventually got it right, but the mere fact that the first four or five panels had it so terribly wrong is evidence, imo, that SOME judges DO judge on expectations. The TOC could well play into that. I will add that I think this ia a good conversation to have.... While I wont argue that Phantom probably DID get a few points for being the 08 champion, I believe the main reason Phantom was so far ahead in the beginning was how prepared the music was. Red Violin had some great music, but the visuals were awful. So, Phantom wins for a while because of music - but then everyone catches up and passes within a few shows because the overall program never got any better. The show that was presented at dress rehersal never got any better and everyone had caught up and passed them by Finals. But, I still believe that if the TOC tour was 33 shows of just the 2010 top 8 finalists - at finals in Indianapolis this year there would be a big gap between the bottom of the TOC group corps and the top scoring of the non-TOC corps. Constantly competing with high scoring corps can only bring up the scores of the rest of the competition because they are have a different vision - to knock that top corps off. If the Blue Devils, Carolina Crown, Bluecoats, Cavies and Cadets aren't at your show I dont think the top score in the show would be as high as if they were. It has nothing to do with being 'chosen' to be part of the TOC, it has to do with the consistant quality of these corps - and how competing against them makes the rest of the corps better. BUT seeing there is only 4 TOC shows this season, it should not make a significant change in how soon the first corps hits 80, 90 or more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) corpsband, we probably agree on this more than you think. No, I have never bought into judging conspiracy theories, but my DCI experience goes back to the 70's, and I think there IS a subconcious stratifying of corps by some adjudicators who may in fact have no idea they are prone to it. Just look how order of appearance can affect a show's results. I was with BAC during the beginning of the 09 tour, where Phantom had a sizable lead on Crown and a huge lead on both Blue Stars and BAC. As I mentioned earlier, they eventually got it right, but the mere fact that the first four or five panels had it so terribly wrong is evidence, imo, that SOME judges DO judge on expectations. The TOC could well play into that. I will add that I think this ia a good conversation to have.... One of the concerns I have had is that the list of the TOC Corps was announced before the camps. I would think this unprecedented move would immediately provide an offseason recruiting edge to World Class Corps that were in the TOC, then those World Class Corps just outside the grouping. Time will tell if such an offseason advantage gave the TOC Corps a boost over the others or not. I certainly think it's at least a possibility, and something to think about, anyway. Edited April 1, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 corpsband, we probably agree on this more than you think. No, I have never bought into judging conspiracy theories, but my DCI experience goes back to the 70's, and I think there IS a subconcious stratifying of corps by some adjudicators who may in fact have no idea they are prone to it. Just look how order of appearance can affect a show's results. I was with BAC during the beginning of the 09 tour, where Phantom had a sizable lead on Crown and a huge lead on both Blue Stars and BAC. As I mentioned earlier, they eventually got it right, but the mere fact that the first four or five panels had it so terribly wrong is evidence, imo, that SOME judges DO judge on expectations. The TOC could well play into that. I will add that I think this ia a good conversation to have.... I'm not under the illusion that judging is any sort of objective activity. Judges see shows through the lens of their experience and (like it or not) preferences. We hope their training helps them to overcome these pitfalls but like everyone else I sometimes scratch my head at a number or two. Most of the time corps each have clear strengths and weaknesses and it's not hard to understand what separates them. Corps that consistently address those weakness seem to move up. Corps that don't -- well -- don't. I think that that sort of honest assessment of shortcomings and willingness to aggressively address them is *really* hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 It took Boston 27 years (ironically ) to crack the top 12. The number of times that BAC just HAPPENED to place 13th 14th or 15th is unbelievable. Particularly with the 12 man judging panels that were in place during most of those years, does anyone really think that this was coincidence? Was entrance to the Top 12 was really as "open" as we wanted to believe? Will entrance into the Top 8 be any different? Yikes, a conspiracy theorist! All respect to Boston, an organization that has clung to its traditions with pride and dignity and has endured, often by sheer force of will, to become a modern day powerhouse. Making the Saturday night show for the past 12 years is no small achievement. However, through the 70s and 80s Boston was respectable but by no means a contender, placing outside the top 17 considerably more often than not. It was during the 90s that they established themselves as an up-and-comer and laid the groundwork for the successful run they've experienced since 1999. Props to them for their hard work and the competitive success it has brought them. But during that period of growth in the 90's, whom would you have bumped out of finals to make room for them? Were the efforts of those 12th place/bubble competition winners, or the quality of their performances, any less deserving? It's tough down there on the bubble, just as it's tough on the periphery of the top 8/TOC. Good luck to the kids at all levels of competition. Win or lose, 8th, 10th, 12th, 13th - we can only hope that when they look back, they'll feel that their experiences were worth the effort. Peace, Fred O. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Nobody knows. It's all speculation as to the future. ( just like anything for that matter ) The only thing we can say with certainty is that the World Class Division has been segmented for this season into a Group Slotting System that subdivides the Division based upon previous years competitive results. The fact that some of the competing Corps have already received a competitive advantaged standing for this season as a result of this ( while others have already been put into a disadvantaged competitive situation going into this season as a result ), is simply where we are at present. Where it takes us from here is where we enter the realm of guesswork and speculation. There is precisely ZERO proof to back this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) There is precisely ZERO proof to back this up. What exactly do you want " proofed " by me in my comment above, BozzlyB ? I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate. Edited April 1, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Its not about 'var(ing) how hard they work'! Every corps tries as hard as they can for as long as they can. Its varing the competition they have to meet at a show. But, I believe that a tour show needs a few of last years' top 5 and a few 6-10 and a few 11-20 ranked corps it it. This just pushes a 13 to become an 9 and a 6 to be a 1. IMO, I believe drum corps is just like any sports team - you often play to the level of your best opponent. Not all corps start with the same level of talent but a middle rated corps can push their members to a higher level by being inspired to do so with higher level competition. Or is someone trying to tell me (because I never marched) that every corps competes just within their corps at every show? Removing last year's top finishing corps from the normal tour competition, in my opinion, will change how quickly one or more corps reach 80 points and then 90 points. Not all of the top 8 might benefit from this competition but I believe you get inspiration to do better and to show you are better when you compete with a corps that finished above you last year. it's not really analogous to sports though... as a member of a corps, you cannot have any impact on what another corps does. VCU can beat any team in this current basketball tournament. No drum corps in the 6+ range is going to come anywhere near BD in scoring at any time this season. If drum corps performed at the level of the best opponent, you would see significant score drops when a top 3 corps goes on at a show with no one else in the top 8. Now, have you seen these score drops repeatedly happen in these types of shows? "Middle corps" compete every saturday in the second half of the season against all the top corps at regionals. They never "raise their game" based on the competition that is at these regionals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpaul Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 What exactly do you want " proofed " by me in my comment above, BozzlyB ? I don't understand what you mean. Please elaborate. You seem to be saying, with certainty, that TOC corps have been granted a competitive advantage over non-TOC corps, which is something that can't be "known" until after the season is underway (or over). I think some people are making this TOC thing out to be more than what it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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