supersop Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 There is no way Crown is going to medal this year. Not with this show. Musically, they may very well have a shot at taking the Brass title...but they are not going to beat Blue Devils, Cadets AND Cavaliers with the shows that these 3 corps are doing, plus the fact that the Blue Devils have a title to defend, and both the Cadets and Cavs are starving for a title. Nice show, good crowd pleaser, but not this year either, Crown. Maybe next year they could have a show full of 4th symphonies and call it "A 4th Chance"? Bruckner's 4th is a very good 4th symphony, and Beethoven's 4th is my favorite Beethoven symphony. Mahler's 4th movt 3 might make a good power ballad. If what you say in the first paragraph is factual and true ...... then I say this is the problem with DCI at it's core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyWonder1911 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Maybe I am biased against Crown a little. I used to be a huge Crown fan since 2002, but this has changed since 2008. And I just for some reason, I can't imagine 10 years from now looking back at 2011 and thinking that a rock 'n roll show with a mosh pit won DCI finals. And as much as I like a lot of the old school stuff, I can't watch this show and think of that. I don't see this show as a retro show at all, nothing traditional like Scouts or Crossmen are putting out. Just seems fresh and new, almost too much so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SACMellos2010 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Cadets I feel have a show that is as complete as Crown but with Cavaliers I find it gimicky as another poster said and there were a few times during the show that I found myself thinking about what kind of dressing I wanted with my salad as my mind wandered because it didn't hold my attention or leave me wanting more. Blue Devils may be defending a title but I see them in 4th this year. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyWonder1911 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) supersop - you don't think show designs are judged? Show design is literally half of the score. The other half comes from execution. It may not be scored exactly this way, but a corps can only do what is given to them. If Pioneer marched their show perfectly both visually and musically, it would still not make Finals. And that is not to pick on them, it's the same with any other program that does not have as much a difficulty factor - and even in the top 12, or even top 6 or top 4, where every program is very difficult in every way compared to programs outside the current top 12, it may not be apparent to most audience members or fans who don't have music degrees or at least are highly familiarized with music, but the judges are able to see those nuances of difficulty - they've been doing it for a long time, they know what to look for, they can tell us why show A is more demanding than show B, and be able to give a logical, fact based reasoning for it - and they will judge based on how difficult it is, and how well it was done. And I'm not saying Crown's show is less difficult than the 3 above them, I'm saying that the corps above them are too competitive right now. I don't think ANYone has a chance to medal outside those 3, but I guess time will indeed tell. Honestly, I wouldn't mind Crown taking 3rd over Blue Devils. Would not mind that at all. Repertoire and Execution. Oh - and BTW - I wasn't implying that the judges are not going to let Crown medal because they are doing this kind of show. I really think the judges try as hard as they possibly can to not let a certain type of show affect how they judge - in other words, they try to be as impartial as possible. And I don't think Crown should be smacked by judges for their show, and I don't think this has been the case, judging from the fact they are still among the top 4. Edited July 13, 2011 by BoyWonder1911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Maybe I am biased against Crown a little. I used to be a huge Crown fan since 2002, but this has changed since 2008. And I just for some reason, I can't imagine 10 years from now looking back at 2011 and thinking that a rock 'n roll show with a mosh pit won DCI finals. And as much as I like a lot of the old school stuff, I can't watch this show and think of that. I don't see this show as a retro show at all, nothing traditional like Scouts or Crossmen are putting out. Just seems fresh and new, almost too much so. That's a natural response. Most people loved crown when they weren't crashing the top 3. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it might be subconscious. They make their movement look easy now. That's a massive improvement. I still think they need more variety intervalically in their show, but that's up to Leon May. They have an incredible sound as we all know .. and an extremely impressive approach to the instrument in the brass section. Design choices are up to the staff and designers .. with that said, Crown has held true to their roots in cutting a niche for being entertaining, lighthearted and fun ... all while maintaining a super high level of execution and technique. It's not like they're out there playing whole notes the entire show. There is a ton of meat in there. And they're playing the snot out of it. Why shouldn't that win? Because it's not esoteric enough? That's a pretty failed argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 supersop - you don't think show designs are judged? Show design is literally half of the score. The other half comes from execution. It may not be scored exactly this way, but a corps can only do what is given to them. If Pioneer marched their show perfectly both visually and musically, it would still not make Finals. And that is not to pick on them, it's the same with any other program that does not have as much a difficulty factor - and even in the top 12, or even top 6 or top 4, where every program is very difficult in every way compared to programs outside the current top 12, it may not be apparent to most audience members or fans who don't have music degrees or at least are highly familiarized with music, but the judges are able to see those nuances of difficulty - they've been doing it for a long time, they know what to look for, they can tell us why show A is more demanding than show B, and be able to give a logical, fact based reasoning for it - and they will judge based on how difficult it is, and how well it was done. And I'm not saying Crown's show is less difficult than the 3 above them, I'm saying that the corps above them are too competitive right now. I don't think ANYone has a chance to medal outside those 3, but I guess time will indeed tell. Honestly, I wouldn't mind Crown taking 3rd over Blue Devils. Would not mind that at all. Repertoire and Execution. Oh - and BTW - I wasn't implying that the judges are not going to let Crown medal because they are doing this kind of show. I really think the judges try as hard as they possibly can to not let a certain type of show affect how they judge - in other words, they try to be as impartial as possible. And I don't think Crown should be smacked by judges for their show, and I don't think this has been the case, judging from the fact they are still among the top 4. Actually show design is about 60% of the score. I'm fully aware. The issue isn't the weight .. it's the value of the weight. I was merely saying that if a fun show with good tunes should be just as rewarded as City of Glass. You're not saying it directly .. but you are saying it indirectly. Honestly, I can't argue with that part of your argument ... I just said that it's a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Anyway .. one of my 3 upset predictions is already coming true. WTG TROOP!!!!! Now we'll see if Madison can push 5 or 6 .. .and Crown to the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) And I'm not saying Crown's show is less difficult than the 3 above them, I'm saying that the corps above them are too competitive right now IMO, the whole premise that there are "three above them", is false. I'm basing this on Crown's last head to head meeting with Cavaliers and the resulting .9 tenths spread. I was at the Bowling Green show, and I'm telling you, Crown connected big time with the audience (and apparently some of the judges). We'll see how it all shakes out Saturday night, but right now, I think their total package is as good as anyone's. Edited July 13, 2011 by oldtimedrummer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMusician Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Can we get back on topic and argue through pm? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 IMO, the whole premise that there are "three above them", is false. I'm basing this on the last head to head meeting with Cavaliers and the resulting spread .9 spread. I was at the Bowling Green show, and I'm telling you, Crown connected with the audience (and apparently some of the judges). We'll see how it all shakes out Saturday night, but right now, I think their total package is as good as anyone's. Was also at Bowling Green and 10 out of 10 polled in the crowd said Crown had about a 2 pt win. I've said this just about every year (no matter the corps) .... "the perennial's will always hold a lead until about mid season .. at which point those in the hunt will have proved time and time again that they deserve the spot or spots ahead of them". It's about that time. Cavies, Cadets and BD still has a shot to hold their spots ... but they all need some rewrites and now is their time to do so. It just makes for a more exciting end of the season. The thing I like about modern drum corps is that 15-17 corps have the capability of doing effective rewrites and getting those rewrites in great shape by end of season. Back in my day .. only 3-5 corps could do so. It just makes things more interesting up and down the ranks (but only when the shows are good like this year). I'm also very very happy that 90% of the corps have decided to let the horn lines play and put some color in their sound. This is a HUGE change for DCI in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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