roosevelt Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Obnoxious, maybe...but not arrogant. Should be more tactful, but after endless BD trashing and ad hominem attacks it's hard to maintain proper decorum. BD alums and fans may have the reputation you describe here on DCP...BUT...I can tell you with confidence that anyone supporting/voicing support for BD are routinely trashed as if they've personally offended said posters' mother(s). Those who engage in this behavior have a reputation among BD alums and fans as intolerant boobs, launching attacks based only on hatred for the success of the corps, and rarely based on rational or other factual data. It's an unfortunate combination...I think BD people are a little weary of it, and come off snarky at times, for which I apologize. I'd hope that people wouldn't "play judge" if they don't take a close look at everyone's show from a judge's perspective. There's no reason to NOT respect any of the top corps...but too many get blinded by "homerism" or bias against particular corps, and we end up with a situation like this. Here's hoping Alex can put on his judging cap and try to appreciate what's going on with EVERYONE'S show before making comments such as he did. I mostly agree. BD does get a lot of hate. That is one of the burdens of being what is essentially The Yankees of DCI. It does not help though when many people from the organization thumb their noses at people who question them. I can't tell you how often I have heard someone say "well, 14 championships and 23 brass titles says otherwise" when someone has an opinion that BD has areas of improvement. There is plenty to blame to go around on both sides of the aisle. Being a D-bag in response to someone who is hating in BD is not going to get BD any less hate on here. In reality, it is going to get them even more. In general, I would say that the homerism on here is pretty bad. We are all guilty of it. Nearly everyone's opinions on here are colored by their preference for one corps and also colored by their dislike of another corps (or more). Personally, I like BD this year. Enjoyable show. I liked last year more because it pushed the envelope and did things that had not been done before, not to mention it was super clean. This year's show is not pushing the envelope IMO. I can enjoy it, but I don't think it is innovative enough to be in the championship discussion. Neither is Crown, but Crown is entertaining enough to be in the discussion for the title; even though I think The Cavaliers are the team to beat as of right now. In regards to visual demand? BD does stand around quite a bit - especially while playing. How they make up for things is the vocabulary that they exhibit. They are trained and they move very well. Their visual ensemble is also very tight (as always). So, I think they have a lot of depth, but not a lot of difficulty. I think Crown and Cadets have a more difficult book, but it is not being achieved at the same level as BD, so it is a bit of a toss up. If you do more, there are more ticks.... but there is also potential of more achievement. In the end it will come down to who is doing the most AND is clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I mostly agree. I can't tell you how often I have heard someone say "well, 14 championships and 23 brass titles says otherwise" when someone has an opinion that BD has areas of improvement. There is plenty to blame to go around on both sides of the aisle. Being a D-bag in response to someone who is hating in BD is not going to get BD any less hate on here. In reality, it is going to get them even more. Hey, I'm totally with you on the "we have xx number of rings", etc.. I find that among the most recent members. Being proud is one thing, but as you say, a D-bag is another. As one of the original title winners with BD, it is cringe-worthy. Back then, we pretty much went about our business, proud of our accomplishments but not rude or showboaters. In general, I would say that the homerism on here is pretty bad. We are all guilty of it. Nearly everyone's opinions on here are colored by their preference for one corps and also colored by their dislike of another corps (or more). Personally, I like BD this year. Enjoyable show. I liked last year more because it pushed the envelope and did things that had not been done before, not to mention it was super clean. This year's show is not pushing the envelope IMO. I can enjoy it, but I don't think it is innovative enough to be in the championship discussion. Neither is Crown, but Crown is entertaining enough to be in the discussion for the title; even though I think The Cavaliers are the team to beat as of right now. I'm with you here as well, mostly. I liked last year's show better...this year has some nice moments but lacks "octane" for me. I think this year's iteration is innovative, but it's leaned too much in favor of visual staging over "meat" to the point where they're standing around too much. They need a couple minutes more drill and some huge impact points brass-wise to satisfy me...you can't argue with the credentials of the staff, so I can only hope they see these deficiencies and address them. So far, many of the problems I had with the show have been corrected. In regards to visual demand? BD does stand around quite a bit - especially while playing. How they make up for things is the vocabulary that they exhibit. They are trained and they move very well. Their visual ensemble is also very tight (as always). So, I think they have a lot of depth, but not a lot of difficulty. I think Crown and Cadets have a more difficult book, but it is not being achieved at the same level as BD, so it is a bit of a toss up. If you do more, there are more ticks.... but there is also potential of more achievement. In the end it will come down to who is doing the most AND is clean. Standing around too much is becoming a BIG problem with everyone. Out of the top four, Cadets probably do it the least, but it's still too much. Moving and playing anything difficult is a dying practice as well. Seems as if everyone has learned to "play the sheets" and get the best visual, brass and percussion performances out of their groups...but not simultaneously! Despite BD's many flaws to date, they're still in the hunt - which speaks to the talent level staff and performer-wise. However, it also illuminates the lack of really coherent and solid shows. Cavs perform very well, but don't create big GE for me like they usually do. BD, see above. Crown stands around too much as well, sounds great but the music is just a big mashup for me. Wish they'd do more of Symphonic Dances...great tune, but it's chopped to bits. Cadets do some neat things, but I have some judging-related concerns re/content and theme. Bluecoats surprised me a bit. Didn't expect them to fall to sixth. They have some nice moments, but I liked last year better. Phantom has a pleasing show but drill and percussion have issues. SCV has a nice concept, like the music but the horns are weaker this year. I just go down the list, and find that everyone just isn't quite together. I think the TOC thing came too early and forced the top corps out of their routine and comfort zone. The only group pretty much together were Cavs, and they've parlayed that into a leading role. I look at their show and think "it's great now, but I don't see too many areas they could do better". I hope for their sake the staff have some tricks up their sleeve. It almost reminds me of the BD "Constantly Risking Absurdity" concept, though with a Cavs slant. Should be a wild run to Indy...I think we may see a LOT of shuffling in the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimedrummer Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) This is a tough one... but I think the answer is yes. The thing about Cavies this year is that they really don't have any weaknesses. Crown has a lot of strengths, but their weaknesses in guard and percussion, things that most people probably won't notice if they're not looking for it, are apparent. I still love Crown this year and hope they give Cavies a run for their money, but I do think that at this point, Cavies have done a much better job of covering all their bases, and that's where the 1.4 comes from. I still agree that Crown as the best brass so far this season. I disagree. Crown doesn't have a weakness in guard and percussion. Just because two boneheaded judges gave them sixth, doesn't mean a thing at this point. They apparently didn't get the memo, that Crown is for real across the board. I'd suggest everyone look and listen with their own eyes and ears and report back. There's NO WAY Crown was sixth in anything in MN. Edited July 18, 2011 by oldtimedrummer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) I disagree. Crown doesn't have a weakness in guard and percussion. Just because two boneheaded judges gave them sixth, doesn't mean a thing. They apparently didn't get the memo. I'd suggest everyone look and listen with their own eyes and ears and report back. There's NO WAY Crown was sixth in anything in MN. I can't speak for guard, but 6th place for them isn't unreasonable.. The percussion section is quality, for sure, but they aren't doing anything even remotely in the same realm as Vanguard, Cavies, Devs or Bluecoats. They aren't even executing what they are doing as well as those groups. They may not be set in the 6th spot, as there is a lot of season left, but they certainly don't belong in the top 4. right now. Percussion is in fact, a weakness for them. Edited July 18, 2011 by actucker 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDCorno Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I disagree. Crown doesn't have a weakness in guard and percussion. Just because two boneheaded judges gave them sixth, doesn't mean a thing at this point. They apparently didn't get the memo, that Crown is for real across the board. I'd suggest everyone look and listen with their own eyes and ears and report back. There's NO WAY Crown was sixth in anything in MN. I'd beg to disagree, and I'm sure there are others. Surely the judges disagreed, but hey - it was the first time with "everyone" in the same place under one panel. There will be plenty of reflection on the judges' part, and maybe some things will be a little different as we go forward. From my experience, the adjustments will be minor, but there will be a few. I don't Crown's guard or drum line are "weak"...but there are stronger groups. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I am sure that you know that there is a perception out there that BD alum and fans are arrogant right? Well, you certainly cleared the bar with plenty of room to spare. Nicely done. u know they say that about Madison also,.....lol....its all just perception and like everything in the activity its all subjective......lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roosevelt Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I disagree. Crown doesn't have a weakness in guard and percussion. Just because two boneheaded judges gave them sixth, doesn't mean a thing at this point. They apparently didn't get the memo, that Crown is for real across the board. I'd suggest everyone look and listen with their own eyes and ears and report back. There's NO WAY Crown was sixth in anything in MN. Crown does have a weakness in percussion. Their guard seams fine to me, but their percussion is a liability. Every group that beat the in drums last night has a better percussion section. Cavaliers? Check. BD? Check. SCV? Check. Bluecoats? Check. Cadets? Check. That is a pretty good top five in drums. As for Guard, it is very possible for them to have a great guard and still finish 6th. All of the groups that beat them out have solid guards. They even beat Bluecoats in that caption who usually have a good guard (even though I understand that they are not as good in that area this year). BD, Phantom, SCV, Cavaliers, & Cadets all have solid guard this year. The judge could have been completely in the right for putting Crown in 6th in guard. Last year a 6th place corps won drums. It is possible for a corps to have one caption that is outperforming the rest of the ensemble. It is also possible for the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcutuba Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Now it's 1.9. So I guess 1.4 was a little gift from the judges last night... Let's make another thread to point out that our favorite corps is being scored lower than Cavies. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexL Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 You really should spend some time evaluating visual programs. Your statement "...but nowhere near the visual demand of Cavs\Crown" in comparison to BD is questionable at best. If you take the time to look at the shows in detail, you'd realize that Cavs and Crown are not quite in the same ballpark visual demand-wise. Cavs/Cadets I could almost swallow, but not Cavs/Crown. You really need to learn some reading comprehension before getting all butthurt that im not glowing about every aspect of your corps. In fact, i like quite a bit about this show musically. I never said that crown is on the same level as cavaliers. Not once. It would be a joke if i did. However, BD is below Cavs, Cadets and Crown in the visual demand department, so it is not inaccurate to say that they were below Cavs\Crown, just because at first left cadets out of that post. Doesnt mean i think that Crown is in the same neighborhood as Cavs. I mentioned them first (as they were the 2 corps that beat BD overall at that show), but almost immediately modified that to include Cadets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylogan Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Why do you say that BD is below Crown in visual demand? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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