Drum Corps Nation Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 This is true. But we also judge execution. An effective, yet dirty show will not score well. As long as we judge execution, we have to judge WHAT it is theyre executing and how hard it is to execute it cleanly. What he was saying is that a dirty show is NOT effective. It must be clean enough to be effective, and in general, the cleaner something is, the more effective it becomes. "An effective, yet dirty show" is not really possible because the dirt reduces effectiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I have no idea what the percentages are... but what percentage of people, from so many diverse backgrounds, have to find BD's shows lacking the demand of the top 6, before the BD people would at least roll over a little bit and admit it? If we JUST had bandos, or JUST had old timers, or JUST had Cavaliers alums... I could see it. The fact of the matter is, we see people all across the board making the same observations. Not everyone feels this way about BD, but A LOT of people do. How many eyes are wrong? This isn't a handful we are seeing, it is a lot. Perfect post. I've been trying to say this for the last year or so, but people enjoy the "ostrich" mentality. Just stick your head in the sand, and pretend no one else is saying anything bad. It's like the Cadets with the narration shows. People complained, and they changed their programming. But they had to open their ears and listen first to the comments and criticisms coming from the masses online and in the stands. How many folks have to sit on their hands, or golf clap before the staff will realize something is missing? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Tanji Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) Which is why, in theory, you have different sections of the sheets to evaluate effect, demand, and execution. I'm note sure what your point is, or if we disagree on anything, but my point is this: judges are looking for effect, artistry, expression, and performance quality as primary concerns. Demand is secondary, certainly a means to an end but not the end itself. They most certainly do not just add up the difficulty level of a show and score it based on that as the only criteria. Edited August 2, 2011 by BDUFLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Tanji Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Perfect post. I've been trying to say this for the last year or so, but people enjoy the "ostrich" mentality. Just stick your head in the sand, and pretend no one else is saying anything bad. It's like the Cadets with the narration shows. People complained, and they changed their programming. But they had to open their ears and listen first to the comments and criticisms coming from the masses online and in the stands. How many folks have to sit on their hands, or golf clap before the staff will realize something is missing? Good grief. People complained about BD's narration and BD abandoned it after ONE YEAR. People complained about BD's non melodic music and BD came out with a melodic show. People complained about the sound of Dynasty drums and horns and BD went with King and Pearl. The goal posts keep moving. People will always find the something to complain about. People complain that shows emphasize drill over music, then BD does a show that emphasizes music and people complain about too simple a drill. Some people love the music and hate the mirrors. Some people love the mirrors and hate the music. I have no doubt that BD will abandon props soon. But rest assured people will find something else to complain about. As difficult as it may be to believe, BD has many, many, many fans. I don't know exactly how many people love BD or how many people hate BD or exactly why. But I do know that BD has one of the biggest fan bases in the entire activity. Why don't you guys form a committee and give BD a list of demands so they can do exactly what you want? I doubt you could reach a consensus, but even if you did I doubt that would make everyone love BD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I have no idea what the percentages are... but what percentage of people, from so many diverse backgrounds, have to find BD's shows lacking the demand of the top 6, before the BD people would at least roll over a little bit and admit it? If we JUST had bandos, or JUST had old timers, or JUST had Cavaliers alums... I could see it. The fact of the matter is, we see people all across the board making the same observations. Not everyone feels this way about BD, but A LOT of people do. How many eyes are wrong? This isn't a handful we are seeing, it is a lot. This was a prime topic for the last two years and the DCP member that best answered this was Magicbobert (I think last year). I'd do the search myself but I'm too lazy. Anyway, he went into the detail that the average eye may not catch because they are always so clean in their marching skills. This isn't to say that your point has no merit, but something I learned long ago when I was waiting for an elevator with a bunch of people who wanted to go up (they were all pressing upper floors), all of them got on the elevator heading down 3 floors to the lower parking level (they didn't notice); I didn't enter and then waited for the doors of the full elevator to almost close, and yelled "The majority is alway wrong!!!!" I could hear them groan as the elevator began to go down. Edited August 2, 2011 by Plan9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralTsoChicken Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 This was a prime topic for the last two years and the DCP member that best answered this was Magicbobert (I think last year). I'd do the search myself but I'm too lazy. Anyway, he went into the detail that the average eye may not catch because they are always so clean in their marching skills. This isn't to say that your point has no merit, but something I learned long ago when I was waiting for an elevator with a bunch of people who wanted to go up (they were all pressing upper floors), all of them got on the elevator heading down 3 floors to the lower parking level (they didn't notice); I didn't enter and then waited for the doors of the full elevator to almost close, and yelled "The majority is alway wrong!!!!" I could hear them groan as the elevator began to go down. I can buy that to a certain extent. Arturo Tuscanini said it best, "Our dirtiest performances, were always found by our audiences to be the most exciting." But, let's be honest here... other than 91'... can we think of a show that BD had that was "too hard" for their members? I am not arguing that their membership excellence is higher than most... but not once in the last 20 years have we seen a show they couldn't execute well. I think we can make a list a mile long of all the other corps that have had shows in the last 20 years that were a little too hard for them and didn't execute well early on (or even by the end of the season). I'd love to see one BD show that was just beyond the reach of the members in the beginning of the season, that came into its own right at the end. Even if the execution wasn't there, the excitement of watching that many EXCELLENT artists, performing such difficult things at a high level, would push the General Effect out of sight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Good grief. People complained about BD's narration and BD abandoned it after ONE YEAR. People complained about BD's non melodic music and BD came out with a melodic show. People complained about the sound of Dynasty drums and horns and BD went with King and Pearl. The goal posts keep moving. People will always find the something to complain about. People complain that shows emphasize drill over music, then BD does a show that emphasizes music and people complain about too simple a drill. Some people love the music and hate the mirrors. Some people love the mirrors and hate the music. I have no doubt that BD will abandon props soon. But rest assured people will find something else to complain about. As difficult as it may be to believe, BD has many, many, many fans. I don't know exactly how many people love BD or how many people hate BD or exactly why. But I do know that BD has one of the biggest fan bases in the entire activity. Why don't you guys form a committee and give BD a list of demands so they can do exactly what you want? I doubt you could reach a consensus, but even if you did I doubt that would make everyone love BD. It's like that with every corps! The problem is, it seems like some of the BD fans can't seem to recognize that it happens to every corps. People complained about Cavaliers not playing loud, and they come and blow the walls down. People complain about Cadet's narration, and they give us West Side Story. People complained about Madison losing it's identity, and they bring out Slaughter on 10th Avenue. It happens to every corps. No one is going to love every corps, every year. But until the fans of every corps can grow a little thicker skin, and learn that criticism and comments are just that, not personal attacks against the corps and kids, these kinds of things will happen every year like clockwork. Everyone has different opinions, it doesn't mean that they "hate" the corps, or are "jealous" of their success, it's because they find something in the show that they do not enjoy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimaster Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Maybe you didn't notice what the guard is doing at this time. It is called a guard feature. The horn line blows your ears off and the guard is dancing, throwing sabres, throwing rifles, etc. I am sure a guard person on here can tell you how easy all of this is. So you are totally cool with, from 3:45 on the atlanta feed to 7:30, BD's show being an extended perc/guard feature with no simultaneous marching and playing done by the Brass? No way that get's top visual scores in rep. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 This isn't to say that your point has no merit, but something I learned long ago, when I was waiting for an elevator with a bunch of people who wanted to go up (they were all pressing upper floors), and all of them got on the elevator heading down three floors to the lower parking level (they didn't notice); I didn't enter and then waited for the doors of the full elevator to almost close, and yelled "The majority is alway wrong!" I could hear them groan as the elevator began to go down. Funny story! Of course, even a majority of judges can be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84BDsop Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Interesting fencing analogy, but it's not mainly about making hard look easy to beginners. It's about doing hard things and having experts (judges, FMM fans, musicians) recognize and value that difficulty. And there's where the difference is...who's the true expert? Even a multiple ring-winning vet who aged out last year can't be sitting up under the GE box and be able to see a marching technique error (let's say uniformity of movement) like the guy in the green shirt on the field. Just because you might be a long term fan, musician, FMM, etc doesn't make you automatically qualified to see things from the perspective of the guys with the score sheets, not unless you've been trained as a judge in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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