partial list of DCI Casualties

[Stu]

ummm... are you and Mike talking about the same thing here?

BariBrian referenced a certain person back in the '30's - '40's who was elitist and despised a certain group of others; you evoked a few people from that time era who are in the same pool as that person; Mike brought up Goodwin's Law; I pointed out, and provided a link to, Goodwin's Law which deals with this issue of referencing a comparison to certain person from that era; so connect the dots.

[audiodb]

Audiodb: Please read the former postings by danielray very carefully. He does not want to just kick 18 on down out of the WC, he wants to kick them and the entire OC out from under the support of DCI.

Actually, he has proposed several different ways to throw different subgroups of corps out of different levels of DCI involvement. Though there is a common thread, each proposal comes with a unique set of objectionable tactics and consequences.

[Stu]

Actually, he has proposed several different ways to throw different subgroups of corps out of different levels of DCI involvement. Though there is a common thread, each proposal comes with a unique set of objectionable tactics and consequences.

The D-Ray is very intelligent; and I do not doubt that he is financially successful. I commend him on those aspects. But with that intelligence is a tad of shrewdness; he also has the keen ability to utilize what is commonly called Convenient Philosophy quite well in an attempt to support his various positions. And if one is not careful to place all of his postings from all of the threads within whatever debate is at hand each of his various positions can come across as rather persuasive. When using this method of Convenient Philosophy he relies on most posters not "going fishing" in other threads for his other postings, or that most posters will have short-term memory on non-life changing discussions, or that most posters are sound-bite driven instead of research motivated. This is why, even though I disagree with him on most all issues, I find it both entertaining and challenging to spar with him within these threads.

[Fran Haring]

While Godwin's Law cautions about overuse so as to keep the comparisons from becoming trite, it does not make any declaration about whether any particular reference or comparison might be appropriate. Also, claiming Godwin's Law as a defense can be abused as a distraction by mis-characterizing a person’s use of comparison as hyperbole when the comparison can be deemed applicable.

There are way too many 10-dollar words in this post.

[Stu]

There are way too many 10-dollar words in this post.

I will sell them all to you at a bargain rate of $7.99/each!

[HNCadet]

I also understood that part of the argument was due to not all that many Plebes being placed in the Cadets, as kids like me from other local area field corps filled a lot of the slots.

....wasn't that simple.........conspiracies run deep.......and Angels & Demons were surfacing in Garfield back in the "60's.............

The Garfield Cadets Plebe Corp began in 1962.........how do I know?....I was there! for at least a couple of months. Angelica really wanted to develop musicians and not have to "unteach" bad habits from players who came into Garfield's program from smaller surrounding units. Also, Garfield & Sac were constantly accused of "raiding" the smaller programs even back then..........nothing could've be farther from the truth but THE Donald's ideas & plans back then were grander than anyone could've imagined and would go a long way to limit outside recruiting.

Garfield was still a hometown corp back then with most of its members coming from the local community, Church and surrounding cities of Passaic, Paterson & Clifton. The local school music program was a disaster and most local Corp members who marched were not participating in the school music program. Consequently, very few could read music and learned by X's(valve in) and O's (slide-out)........... The Plebe Program was to change all that.............it was started with perhaps 7-10 "Young men" ages 10, 11, or 12 who were taught how to play a Brass Instrument and read music..........not with a Belwin Band Builder but an Arban's like reference book and a very hand's on personal approach by initially THE Donald. He soon passed on the program to another great Solo-Soprano Player from Cadet History, Jimmy D'Amico. The program went on from '62-66 with some ebb & flow mostly due to very constricted funding due to the Corp's travel expenses. Tours to Las Vegas in '62, Miami '63, Flights to Dallas '64 and Portland '65 put the Corp into a HUGE financial PIT.

In '67 with Jimmy D now Director things started turning around, the Plebe Corp became a focus again and Jimmy looked to the Corp's past again to find a new leader who could pick up the baton and build the program into a great feeder corp and ALSO represent the organization to a new younger and local audience. The plan really was to have Cadet's TEACH MUSIC & TEAM WORK skills, then have them become a "Parade Corp" that could go out and earn $$$$$ to help support the overall organization WHILE building a solid basis of musical & marching skills. Several talented Cadets were pressed into service for instruction, and Jimmy still assisted in brass instruction. The Plebe Corp Director was a parent of a Plebe who had been a Color Guard Captain in the '40's. He was a great choice because he went after and got parent participation and then as all good things go..............."be careful what you wish for as you may get it" ............the monster grew out of control. The Plebe Corp got GOOD, for a feeder Corp of course, but they started delivering talent just like THE Donald had predicted back in '62. Unfortunately the parents of the Plebe's (many of whom had NO prior experience with the Cadets or Drum Corp for that matter) were NOT satisfied with just being a Parade Corp and DEMANDED to become a Field Competition unit in one of the local New Jersey Circuits. This became a very large problem for Jimmy D and the Cadet Corp as we were still working off a huge debt load and after several HEATED Board Meetings .................in the dark of the NIGHT several of the Plebe parents including the Plebe Director...........entered(broke into) the Corp Hall and confiscated(stole) all the equipment, declared themselves a separate unit and the Epochs were born. A Court case ensued with the Plebes freely being given their equipment even though it was ALL old Cadet equipment(several parents were highly politically placed in the Bergen County Judicial system) How do I know?, my uncle was a Bergen County Court Reporter.

In any case the Plebe Corp became the Epochs who became fairly good I understand, believe they finished 7th in the '72 NJ State AL Championships and 9th in the '73 World Open 'OPEN' Prelims & 5th in the Garden State Circuit Championships. Not Bad for a Feeder Corp from Garfield! Don't believe they lasted much longer though...................

........and what was the total effect on Garfield? well, I was long gone by then but when you lose that much talent from your local pool it has a bad effect and when the majority of those kids move on to one of your biggest local competitors after the Epoch folded.........again review what happened to the Cadets and Muchacho's in the early '70's. Not saying they produced a dozen Jeff Kieviet's but all were likely very good ensemble players(I know because my next door neighbor was one) Thanks to a very good training program first put in place by THE Donald.

One last piece, there was some very bad blood within the org. concerning the Plebe Director, don't know if it ever was forgiven....don't believe I read anything about his attending the 75th Anniversary Celebration a few years ago....hate to see this continue, not sure he's even still alive, but I'm sure plenty of those ex-Plebe Epochs are and I for one would like to see this piece of history finally put to rest. Come on HOME CADETS.

Well so much for this episode of unknown Drum Corp History........................but wait, THERE"S MORE!..no, better not....put the wine down and go to sleep.

[GUARDLING]

....wasn't that simple.........conspiracies run deep.......and Angels & Demons were surfacing in Garfield back in the "60's.............

The Garfield Cadets Plebe Corp began in 1962.........how do I know?....I was there! for at least a couple of months. Angelica really wanted to develop musicians and not have to "unteach" bad habits from players who came into Garfield's program from smaller surrounding units. Also, Garfield & Sac were constantly accused of "raiding" the smaller programs even back then..........nothing could've be farther from the truth but THE Donald's ideas & plans back then were grander than anyone could've imagined and would go a long way to limit outside recruiting.

Garfield was still a hometown corp back then with most of its members coming from the local community, Church and surrounding cities of Passaic, Paterson & Clifton. The local school music program was a disaster and most local Corp members who marched were not participating in the school music program. Consequently, very few could read music and learned by X's(valve in) and O's (slide-out)........... The Plebe Program was to change all that.............it was started with perhaps 7-10 "Young men" ages 10, 11, or 12 who were taught how to play a Brass Instrument and read music..........not with a Belwin Band Builder but an Arban's like reference book and a very hand's on personal approach by initially THE Donald. He soon passed on the program to another great Solo-Soprano Player from Cadet History, Jimmy D'Amico. The program went on from '62-66 with some ebb & flow mostly due to very constricted funding due to the Corp's travel expenses. Tours to Las Vegas in '62, Miami '63, Flights to Dallas '64 and Portland '65 put the Corp into a HUGE financial PIT.

In '67 with Jimmy D now Director things started turning around, the Plebe Corp became a focus again and Jimmy looked to the Corp's past again to find a new leader who could pick up the baton and build the program into a great feeder corp and ALSO represent the organization to a new younger and local audience. The plan really was to have Cadet's TEACH MUSIC & TEAM WORK skills, then have them become a "Parade Corp" that could go out and earn $$$$$ to help support the overall organization WHILE building a solid basis of musical & marching skills. Several talented Cadets were pressed into service for instruction, and Jimmy still assisted in brass instruction. The Plebe Corp Director was a parent of a Plebe who had been a Color Guard Captain in the '40's. He was a great choice because he went after and got parent participation and then as all good things go..............."be careful what you wish for as you may get it" ............the monster grew out of control. The Plebe Corp got GOOD, for a feeder Corp of course, but they started delivering talent just like THE Donald had predicted back in '62. Unfortunately the parents of the Plebe's (many of whom had NO prior experience with the Cadets or Drum Corp for that matter) were NOT satisfied with just being a Parade Corp and DEMANDED to become a Field Competition unit in one of the local New Jersey Circuits. This became a very large problem for Jimmy D and the Cadet Corp as we were still working off a huge debt load and after several HEATED Board Meetings .................in the dark of the NIGHT several of the Plebe parents including the Plebe Director...........entered(broke into) the Corp Hall and confiscated(stole) all the equipment, declared themselves a separate unit and the Epochs were born. A Court case ensued with the Plebes freely being given their equipment even though it was ALL old Cadet equipment(several parents were highly politically placed in the Bergen County Judicial system) How do I know?, my uncle was a Bergen County Court Reporter.

In any case the Plebe Corp became the Epochs who became fairly good I understand, believe they finished 7th in the '72 NJ State AL Championships and 9th in the '73 World Open 'OPEN' Prelims & 5th in the Garden State Circuit Championships. Not Bad for a Feeder Corp from Garfield! Don't believe they lasted much longer though...................

........and what was the total effect on Garfield? well, I was long gone by then but when you lose that much talent from your local pool it has a bad effect and when the majority of those kids move on to one of your biggest local competitors after the Epoch folded.........again review what happened to the Cadets and Muchacho's in the early '70's. Not saying they produced a dozen Jeff Kieviet's but all were likely very good ensemble players(I know because my next door neighbor was one) Thanks to a very good training program first put in place by THE Donald.

One last piece, there was some very bad blood within the org. concerning the Plebe Director, don't know if it ever was forgiven....don't believe I read anything about his attending the 75th Anniversary Celebration a few years ago....hate to see this continue, not sure he's even still alive, but I'm sure plenty of those ex-Plebe Epochs are and I for one would like to see this piece of history finally put to rest. Come on HOME CADETS.

Well so much for this episode of unknown Drum Corp History........................but wait, THERE"S MORE!..no, better not....put the wine down and go to sleep.

i do think for the most part at least in the big scheme of things it was put to rest many many years ago..even in the 70s not much talk about Epochs except that they didnt exsist anymore

Edited February 24, 2012 by GUARDLING

[MikeD]

....wasn't that simple.........conspiracies run deep.......and Angels & Demons were surfacing in Garfield back in the "60's.............

Thanks for the added info. Very interesting stuff. They started my last year in Garfield. I understand the frustration of the parents of the Plebes just prior to them starting. I joined Garfield in 70 and marched through 72. In 70 and 71, we had VERY few Plebes in the Cadets, but LOTS of members from local area corps from NJ and NY. I don't think that more than a dozen members actually lived in Garfield those years.

[HNCadet]

Thanks for the added info. Very interesting stuff. They started my last year in Garfield. I understand the frustration of the parents of the Plebes just prior to them starting. I joined Garfield in 70 and marched through 72. In 70 and 71, we had VERY few Plebes in the Cadets, but LOTS of members from local area corps from NJ and NY. I don't think that more than a dozen members actually lived in Garfield those years.

My memory may not be what it was 10-15 yrs ago and names/faces are getting fuzzy, but I'd estimate ~25% of that '70 hornline were ex-Plebes.......and those are not bad numbers from a very, very small feeder organization. I'd say those early Plebe Corp's had an 80%+ pass-thru to the Cadet Corp. A large group of that Soprano line and Bari's were Plebe's in 62-68......even myself & JT were in the Plebe's for a short time in '62!

I consider the Plebe/Feeder organizations the true "core" of the Corp and when you consider 'leadership', I can point to JT & Cinz as prime examples. Put a 10-11 yr old into a structured group and drill them for 3-4 years in your 'style' of musicianship and marching and you had no "un-teaching" issues to deal with. Not much different really than the Pop Warner football and Little League Baseball. One reason why GHS had such a good football team in 66-67 was the that a large group of kids went though 3 yrs of Pop Warner football together before they got to High School, on the other hand with no basketball training program in Garfield, even a great Coach like Dick Vitale could only manage a 2 WIN season at GHS with most of the same talented kids. This is the point where DC today fails miserably ........they have no commitment to the local area and in training at the basic levels where a whole lot of learning and teamwork start.........no, they're too interested in culling 125 out of 400-500 of (we want)"only the BEST". I call B.S. on that and say start teaching at the beginner level and carry thru on that program and you'll have a far more stable and successful program than the "recruit the world BS".

SORRY FOR RAMBLE, BUT THERE'S NO EXTRA CHARGE FOR THE SERMON(as one of my Religion prof's used to say)

[reallyoldfrt]

My memory may not be what it was 10-15 yrs ago and names/faces are getting fuzzy, but I'd estimate ~25% of that '70 hornline were ex-Plebes.......and those are not bad numbers from a very, very small feeder organization. I'd say those early Plebe Corp's had an 80%+ pass-thru to the Cadet Corp. A large group of that Soprano line and Bari's were Plebe's in 62-68......even myself & JT were in the Plebe's for a short time in '62!

I consider the Plebe/Feeder organizations the true "core" of the Corp and when you consider 'leadership', I can point to JT & Cinz as prime examples. Put a 10-11 yr old into a structured group and drill them for 3-4 years in your 'style' of musicianship and marching and you had no "un-teaching" issues to deal with. Not much different really than the Pop Warner football and Little League Baseball. One reason why GHS had such a good football team in 66-67 was the that a large group of kids went though 3 yrs of Pop Warner football together before they got to High School, on the other hand with no basketball training program in Garfield, even a great Coach like Dick Vitale could only manage a 2 WIN season at GHS with most of the same talented kids. This is the point where DC today fails miserably ........they have no commitment to the local area and in training at the basic levels where a whole lot of learning and teamwork start.........no, they're too interested in culling 125 out of 400-500 of (we want)"only the BEST". I call B.S. on that and say start teaching at the beginner level and carry thru on that program and you'll have a far more stable and successful program than the "recruit the world BS".

SORRY FOR RAMBLE, BUT THERE'S NO EXTRA CHARGE FOR THE SERMON(as one of my Religion prof's used to say)

BINGO!!! At last someone has come out and nailed the truth right on Emperor DCI's bare buttocks. They have no interest in music education AT ALL. A person has to be already musically educated in order to even try out for participation with a DCI corps. How are those kids supposed to get that education? To quote the late great Tom Lehrer, "That's not my department, said Werner Von Braun."