GUARDLING Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) My memory may not be what it was 10-15 yrs ago and names/faces are getting fuzzy, but I'd estimate ~25% of that '70 hornline were ex-Plebes.......and those are not bad numbers from a very, very small feeder organization. I'd say those early Plebe Corp's had an 80%+ pass-thru to the Cadet Corp. A large group of that Soprano line and Bari's were Plebe's in 62-68......even myself & JT were in the Plebe's for a short time in '62! I consider the Plebe/Feeder organizations the true "core" of the Corp and when you consider 'leadership', I can point to JT & Cinz as prime examples. Put a 10-11 yr old into a structured group and drill them for 3-4 years in your 'style' of musicianship and marching and you had no "un-teaching" issues to deal with. Not much different really than the Pop Warner football and Little League Baseball. One reason why GHS had such a good football team in 66-67 was the that a large group of kids went though 3 yrs of Pop Warner football together before they got to High School, on the other hand with no basketball training program in Garfield, even a great Coach like Dick Vitale could only manage a 2 WIN season at GHS with most of the same talented kids. This is the point where DC today fails miserably ........they have no commitment to the local area and in training at the basic levels where a whole lot of learning and teamwork start.........no, they're too interested in culling 125 out of 400-500 of (we want)"only the BEST". I call B.S. on that and say start teaching at the beginner level and carry thru on that program and you'll have a far more stable and successful program than the "recruit the world BS". SORRY FOR RAMBLE, BUT THERE'S NO EXTRA CHARGE FOR THE SERMON(as one of my Religion prof's used to say) local interest may have continued for corps IF local interest was there...its not..... kids are very different now and have alot of choices...we didnt back in the day...look at most DCI corps today..they have no choice but to go out of their areas to get members.....look at Boston and this is only 1 example...many of their kids are from florida.....very different times now. Edited February 25, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Double Post, sorry. Edited February 25, 2012 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 This is the point where DC today fails miserably ........they have no commitment to the local area and in training at the basic levels where a whole lot of learning and teamwork start.........no, they're too interested in culling 125 out of 400-500 of (we want)"only the BEST". I call B.S. on that and say start teaching at the beginner level and carry thru on that program and you'll have a far more stable and successful program than the "recruit the world BS". BINGO!!! At last someone has come out and nailed the truth right on Emperor DCI's bare buttocks. They have no interest in music education AT ALL. A person has to be already musically educated in order to even try out for participation with a DCI corps. How are those kids supposed to get that education? To quote the late great Tom Lehrer, "That's not my department, said Werner Von Braun." I respect both of these opinions, but I also respectfully disagree for these three reasons: 1) I marched in a DCI top corps just after the stone-age beginnings and even back then auditions were not about 'education' but about placement of the best who auditioned into the corps; what happened back then was that many times there was just not enough musically pre-educated youth auditioning to fill all positions. So, the the only two differences between now and then concerning the aspects of the youth are the quality of those who audition (better today) and the number of youth auditioning each November for the corps (more today); Also, DCI today has different divisions (WC/OC) so that a corps like Genesis is not getting competitively slammed week-in and week-out by a corps like the Cadets, so DCI today is not an ogre who throws out youth. 2) Scholastic education in music is far, far, greater today than it was back when I performed in DCI; take the worst scholastic band course today it would actually be reflective of the national norm back in the day. And while some of the lower corps back in the day might have put a horn to the lips, or sticks in the hands, of the completely uneducated there is no need for that today within DCI; this organization has grown in the direction of performance while the schools have grown in the aspect of education; And I have no problems with that even though I am an old-fart. Therefore, DCI has become, and to me rightly so, the pinnacle of the marching activity allowing the best musical youth in the world today to experience the highest possible experience performing with like high-quality youth performers. 3) Finally, SDCA and hopefully the new DCNA have become, and again I think rightly so, the community drum corps activity today that many old-school drum corps people want to harken back to concerning the way drum corps used to exist. So, I suggest that any person who wants to harken back to the way things used to be to really dig in and support SDCA and DCNA. They are great organizations with great people involved. And you will be very, very happy in doing so because those organizations are exactly what you are looking for within drum corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 My memory may not be what it was 10-15 yrs ago and names/faces are getting fuzzy, but I'd estimate ~25% of that '70 hornline were ex-Plebes.......and those are not bad numbers from a very, very small feeder organization. I'd say those early Plebe Corp's had an 80%+ pass-thru to the Cadet Corp. A large group of that Soprano line and Bari's were Plebe's in 62-68......even myself & JT were in the Plebe's for a short time in '62! You may be right, esp in the hornline. Just did not seem that way to me when I marched. There were some, of course...those you note being two GREAT examples. I think they had a larger impact on the big corps through the early/mid 60's than by my time. I know that in 71 none of the 4 timps, 4 snares or 3 tri-tom players came from the Plebes. And the guard was, of course, primarily girls from the Little Falls Cadets guard who moved over in 69 to become the first girl guard. I consider the Plebe/Feeder organizations the true "core" of the Corp and when you consider 'leadership', I can point to JT & Cinz as prime examples. Put a 10-11 yr old into a structured group and drill them for 3-4 years in your 'style' of musicianship and marching and you had no "un-teaching" issues to deal with. Not much different really than the Pop Warner football and Little League Baseball. One reason why GHS had such a good football team in 66-67 was the that a large group of kids went though 3 yrs of Pop Warner football together before they got to High School, on the other hand with no basketball training program in Garfield, even a great Coach like Dick Vitale could only manage a 2 WIN season at GHS with most of the same talented kids. This is the point where DC today fails miserably ........they have no commitment to the local area and in training at the basic levels where a whole lot of learning and teamwork start.........no, they're too interested in culling 125 out of 400-500 of (we want)"only the BEST". I call B.S. on that and say start teaching at the beginner level and carry thru on that program and you'll have a far more stable and successful program than the "recruit the world BS". Well, we differ on that one, for sure! I'd rather see kids...many more than drum ever dreamed of...get educated on their instruments in public school and march corps if they want later on. The Cadets do have a local commitment...look at Cadets2 and the other local-based YEA! programs in the Allentown area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) You may be right, esp in the hornline. Just did not seem that way to me when I marched. There were some, of course...those you note being two GREAT examples. I think they had a larger impact on the big corps through the early/mid 60's than by my time. I know that in 71 none of the 4 timps, 4 snares or 3 tri-tom players came from the Plebes. And the guard was, of course, primarily girls from the Little Falls Cadets guard who moved over in 69 to become the first girl guard. Well, we differ on that one, for sure! I'd rather see kids...many more than drum ever dreamed of...get educated on their instruments in public school and march corps if they want later on. The Cadets do have a local commitment...look at Cadets2 and the other local-based YEA! programs in the Allentown area. i would have to agree with you Mike on all accounts. As far as commitment, as Ive said before the word commitment I think can be a very different word with different meaning from 40 years ago to now. YES i would like it to be the same with the same loyalities but again that was then this is now. I know this is an argument for the ages but I think it really comes down to needs, wants,desires,and times of the member today and of course the corps themselves and yes audiance members. THIS is with no doubt at all is very different from back in the day. Edited February 25, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 BINGO!!! At last someone has come out and nailed the truth right on Emperor DCI's bare buttocks. They have no interest in music education AT ALL. A person has to be already musically educated in order to even try out for participation with a DCI corps. How are those kids supposed to get that education? To quote the late great Tom Lehrer, "That's not my department, said Werner Von Braun." DCI isn't an elementary school; it's a university. Get with the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I respect both of these opinions, but I also respectfully disagree for these three reasons: 1) I marched in a DCI top corps just after the stone-age beginnings and even back then auditions were not about 'education' but about placement of the best who auditioned into the corps; what happened back then was that many times there was just not enough musically pre-educated youth auditioning to fill all positions. So, the the only two differences between now and then concerning the aspects of the youth are the quality of those who audition (better today) and the number of youth auditioning each November for the corps (more today); Also, DCI today has different divisions (WC/OC) so that a corps like Genesis is not getting competitively slammed week-in and week-out by a corps like the Cadets, so DCI today is not an ogre who throws out youth. 2) Scholastic education in music is far, far, greater today than it was back when I performed in DCI; take the worst scholastic band course today it would actually be reflective of the national norm back in the day. And while some of the lower corps back in the day might have put a horn to the lips, or sticks in the hands, of the completely uneducated there is no need for that today within DCI; this organization has grown in the direction of performance while the schools have grown in the aspect of education; And I have no problems with that even though I am an old-fart. Therefore, DCI has become, and to me rightly so, the pinnacle of the marching activity allowing the best musical youth in the world today to experience the highest possible experience performing with like high-quality youth performers. 3) Finally, SDCA and hopefully the new DCNA have become, and again I think rightly so, the community drum corps activity today that many old-school drum corps people want to harken back to concerning the way drum corps used to exist. So, I suggest that any person who wants to harken back to the way things used to be to really dig in and support SDCA and DCNA. They are great organizations with great people involved. And you will be very, very happy in doing so because those organizations are exactly what you are looking for within drum corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallyoldfrt Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Just so you'll all know: BITD ALL corps put instruments in the hands of completely untrained members. NO corps required auditions. The only thing any kid had to do was show up at rehearsal and express a desire to participate, from the Cavaliers, and the Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights to the Hot Shots of Hyde Park Ma, and the Walden-France Post of Danville Va. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Just so you'll all know: BITD ALL corps put instruments in the hands of completely untrained members. NO corps required auditions. The only thing any kid had to do was show up at rehearsal and express a desire to participate, from the Cavaliers, and the Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights to the Hot Shots of Hyde Park Ma, and the Walden-France Post of Danville Va. Question for reallyoldfart: Today, when over 500 show up at just a Cavaliers November Thanksgiving camp, what would you do? March all 500? March just the 150 with the least amount of experience so that the corps can educate those who cannot play? What would you do in 'todays' Cavaliers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 local interest may have continued for corps IF local interest was there...its not..... kids are very different now and have alot of choices...we didnt back in the day...look at most DCI corps today..they have no choice but to go out of their areas to get members.....look at Boston and this is only 1 example...many of their kids are from florida.....very different times now. Plus cost of even local, non-touring costs have gone out-of-sight compared to BITD. Ths days of hand me down equipment from other corps are gone along with not having to worry about insurance costs and background checks. As for income and chances to perform, number of local parades have gone down badly from decades past. Northeast still has some big parades that pay but some of them are taking hits and unless you are from that city your budget includes a bus bill which would take a big cut. So who wants to join a local non-touring corps and pay a good bit out if your pocket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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