Mello Dude Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Well Bone, you are clearly not a curmudgeon, but keep trying! What you are is the hope and future of DC. A former MM who understands the value of the activity and the passion to plead for what you believe are the things that will preserve it. I share your hope, but I also seek variety in the things that entertain me. You can be critical of any design as long as you observe it without prejudice...and so often (particularly of late) BD gets vicerated for designs that fail to meet the expectations of some fan's "order of things", i.e. musical phases designed to twist our ear and disturb us, then briefly hint at the expected and yank it away, or drill that is so complex and orchestrated that it appears at a glance to be vague, easy and random. It's just a style Bone, not an intentional thumbing of the nose...just another way of looking at the tools DC designers are given, i.e. dimension, sound, timing, musicality, precision, resolve, complexity, unison and filling the field. Lastly, my point, that appears to be lost to oldsnare, corpsband, yourself and others is that...when you attach these designs to a corps that continues to dominate the silver/gold categories they are elevated to ridiculous levels of hyperbole. Take that dimension away and it's just another corps trying something new on a very flat field. Please read the "Emperor's new Clothes". Besides, if you want the HARDEST most complex drill and show (so far IMHO) I would nominate Cadets last year. I would also like to point out that judges are human beings and that the pressure that can be brought to bear from a juggernaut like BD's staff and political motivators as well as sponsors can be most intimidating. There are 4 lights! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 and I believe the fans express that at the end of their performance - polite but not entertained. That's a pretty hasty generalization. Lumping "the fans" into all one group and then presuming to speak for them? We call that argument a fallacy of weak induction. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Please read the "Emperor's new Clothes". Besides, if you want the HARDEST most complex drill and show (so far IMHO) I would nominate Cadets last year. I would also like to point out that judges are human beings and that the pressure that can be brought to bear from a juggernaut like BD's staff and political motivators as well as sponsors can be most intimidating. There are 4 lights! Or, it could be that it's a good show with limited audience appeal, and you just happen to not like it. Throwing around "Emperor's new Clothes" and "Chain of Command" doesn't make your argument any stronger, especially given it's a straw man to begin with. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Please read the "Emperor's new Clothes". Besides, if you want the HARDEST most complex drill and show (so far IMHO) I would nominate Cadets last year. I would also like to point out that judges are human beings and that the pressure that can be brought to bear from a juggernaut like BD's staff and political motivators as well as sponsors can be most intimidating. There are 4 lights! The Emperor's New Clothes is about fear of telling the boss he has forged a reality that doesn't exist, but the da da version is about perceptions that, when reinforced by enough people, become real. Hard is your word...complex is quite different. And yes, Cadets is my vote consistently for hard...so what? You may choose to insult the judging community by assuming they remain in awe of legend.....tell that to the Cavies. Edited July 23, 2012 by Plan9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Lastly, my point, that appears to be lost to oldsnare, corpsband, yourself and others is that...when you attach these designs to a corps that continues to dominate the silver/gold categories they are elevated to ridiculous levels of hyperbole. Take that dimension away and it's just another corps trying something new on a very flat field. Your point is that when it suits you you're willing to speak for drum corps fans everywhere and when it doesn't suit you, you scold posters for speaking for drum corps fans everywhere. Make up your mind Plan! FWIW BD is performing pseudo-winterguard shows outside. And they're playing with props because conceptually they need them to pull the show together. I guess it's new in that no one before them felt that removing drill from drum corps was a good idea :-\ Whatever. It's interesting and sometimes pretty cool and sometime it's so OBVIOUSLY formulaic that it annoys the crap out of me. But -- as I said earlier -- the sheets are written with broad enough language to encompass their approach. I'll just add this last item -- not really to you but to others who want throw to the "A" word around. Art is a tremendously all-encompassing word. Drum corps is not sculpture. Or painting. It's a PERFORMANCE art. While a painter or sculpter is free to ignore everything pursuing their artistic vision, the designer in performance art must be constantly aware of their audience. If BD want to focus exclusively on the audience consisting of judges, that's their prerogative. But don't feign shock when the fans (the actual audience) respond poorly to being ignored. I don't pretend to know where that path will lead. But already we see BD parents complaining about the boos. And we see BD fans on DCP complaining about the ignorant audience. And we hear judges expressing concern about entertainment and accessibility. We hear DCI telling corps that program design *does* affect the bottom line. Not making any predictions, just making observations. Edited July 23, 2012 by corpsband 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Engaging adjective 1. winning; attractive; pleasing: an engaging smile. engage[ en-geyj ] verb (used with object) 1. to occupy the attention or efforts of (a person or persons): He engaged her in conversation. Not exactly. Engaging does mean pleasing and attractive. engagement does not have to be all sunshine and roses. read the second definition. this is not a show I'd probably throw in the cd player down the road. But it's good. It just needs less narration, especially narration covering music 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Does "engagement" have to mean a standing ovation or screaming? nope 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylogan Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 All I know is that this show is phenomenal and I am so glad they put it on field. Just watching it on Fan Network and listening to it on my phone leaves me in awe. One of the best shows in memory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 True. They are engaging people. They are capturing attention, whether it is good or bad. It's like the old saying, "Any press is good press". They have certainly accomplished their goal for the summer, by the fact that we're all sitting on here and talking and arguing about them. Maybe "Audience Engagement" could be defined a bit better, since Cesario said that they are trying to push for more entertaining shows, but it's not on the sheets right now. They are engaging, even if they're not entertaining. exactly. Let's be honest here: BD the last few years has gone inward, and their honks especially are fired up against the ABBD sentiment they feel is prevalent. This year, I can see where there might be truth to ABBD, unlike 08-11. They love being hated. They get off on it. I'm sure even the kids do to a point. This years show is good. IF they cut the vocalsa lot, I'd stand enthusiastically for the show when i see it in 2 weeks 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 engagement does not have to be all sunshine and roses. read the second definition. this is not a show I'd probably throw in the cd player down the road. But it's good. It just needs less narration, especially narration covering music The second defintion is a verb. And DCI sheets use adjectives to describe a show not verbs to describe what a show is doing. So if we are saying the show is "engaging" that is an adjective. If we want to say the show engaged the audience then really every show does that because it captivates attention and that's not what the sheets are simply looking for imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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