Isn't there a major show tonight in Allentown?

[Kamarag]

I'm with you. I think part of the thing that people don't realize, is you go from a show that required audience participation to something that didn't. (They handed out thundersticks for crying out loud) Of course the audience is going to be more engaged with JS's show over Academy. And then I think the fact that they were late just caused a spiral effect. From what I heard they had a consistent show with their other shows.

They used to be scoring relatively high in GE, but no longer the case it seems. And how is that? If a panel of judges ask to see changes and you make them why should scores be going backwards instead of forwards? But even then I haven't heard of them making huge changes, so I don't see why GE would be going backwards when they are performing at the same level.

Yes the penalty should be there from what I hear, but the score without the penalty is definitely way too low.

Academy had a tough job following the monster that was Jersey Surf, but you know what? They owned it. They threw down a really cool, solid performance that the crowd dug. I'm not surprised their number was low (penalty notwithstanding), but they are points better than Surf in the three performance and two ensemble captions.

[POSITIVenrgy]

well it was a good season i may or may not be able to get service to get on DCP while at one of the schools i teach band camp (starts tomorrow and i probably should start packing). Dont kill anyone in the next week

Just want to add my thanks, MotorCity for all the postings. It's a lot of work, i know. Much appreciated! It wouldn't have been a thread without you!

[CorpsRelic]

psst

2009, but still useful.

Thank You!

[jasgre2000]

Hey all,

Thanks for the complements on my tweets (I am @loudbrass). My wife was tweeting as @michelle_ad. I apologize for the all-thumbs typing and auto-correct nonsense. Hard to type on an iPhone while watching the corps.

I'll type up a full review of both nights, but in the meantime...

By far, no-bull, hands down the best Allentown crowd I've ever seen, both nights. Unlike recent years, they gave it up for everyone from Pioneer on up to Blue Devils. No one got ignored.

And a short rant:

And as for "audience engagement", if it was TRULY being judged correctly, Jersey Surf would have been scored in the top 5 in effect music and effect visual. Sure, they were 19th in all three performance captions and both ensembles, but they were absolutely, without a doubt SCREWED by the effect judges.

It's clear to me now that the new sheets are worthless if it's the same old judges doing what they do. Surf owned the crowd tonight, above all other corps, which again wasn't easy with performances by Madison, SCV and Cadets.

I am now officially on the bandwagon in favor of a MAJOR overhaul of the judging system.

Where do you think Jersey Surf should be placing this year? Should they win the DCI title?

I love Surf's show, but it is nowhere close to as clean or as well performed as anyone else in the Top 12. There is a lot more to drum corps than music selection.

[Tony Flores]

Where do you think Jersey Surf should be placing this year? Should they win the DCI title?

I love Surf's show, but it is nowhere close to as clean or as well performed as anyone else in the Top 12. There is a lot more to drum corps than music selection.

I think the poster was mentioning their pure entertainment value. Surf is just dang entertaining...period.

[jasgre2000]

I think the poster was mentioning their pure entertainment value. Surf is just dang entertaining...period.

He said there needs to be major judging overhauls because Surf wasn't scoring as high. I am just wondering where he thinks they should be.

[Kamarag]

Where do you think Jersey Surf should be placing this year? Should they win the DCI title?

I love Surf's show, but it is nowhere close to as clean or as well performed as anyone else in the Top 12. There is a lot more to drum corps than music selection.

Way to not read what I said.

I said that, and I'll spell it out for you clearly:

1) Jersey Surf was scored and placed accurately in the performance captions of Visual, Brass, Guard, and Percussion

2) Jersey Surf was scored and placed accurately in the ensemble visual and ensemble music captions.

3) Jersey Surf was not scored or placed accurately in general effect music or general effect visual.

Let's look at the general Effect Music sheet. In Repertoire Effect, there are five criteria that must be met:

1. Audience Engagement

2. Audio and Visual Coordination

3. Interpretation

4. Variety of Effects

5. Creativity, Originality, Artistry

There are five boxes where they can be scored for that subcaption: The top three are Sometimes (box 3), Usually (box 4), and Always (box 5)

Music Effect Judge #1, Ken Turner, gave Surf an 8.0. Effect Judge #2, Glen Fugett, gave Surf an 8.00. This numbers are good for 11th place, slightly above Cascades, but below Academy. Scores of 8.0 puts Surf in the dead center of Usually (box 4).

Now, I don't think anyone would argue with Surf didn't engage the audience better than any other corps on the night, including Cadets. Their A/V coordination was excellent. Far better than many of the corps above them (but for sake of argument, not all). Interpretation was spot on, especially considering they played in musical idioms no one else touched.

Surf presented a much wider variety of effects than many of the corps above them. Their Creativity and Originality again, far better than most of the corps above them. Again, for sake of argument, let's say they were weak in Artistry (they weren't but for this argument we'll assume they were).

Given the criteria above, and the fact that everything was clearly readable, why did the two Music Effect judges give them such low numbers?

It looks to me like they slotted, especially given that the next corps above Surf, Academy, was .5 and .2 above them, with a much less engaging program that was questionable in areas of coordination and interpretation. Academy's variety of effects was not bad, but not what Surf was. That leaves the last bullet. Creativity and Originality can be argued either way, and again, I'll give Academy artistry for sake of argument.

So why was Academy placed above Surf in Effect Music? No freaking clue, especially considering Surf was clearly ahead in four of the five criteria on the sheet.

At least Glen Fugett threw Surf a bone in the Performer's score, placing them 7th (and thus 9th overall). Mike Stone didn't agree, placing surf squarely in 11th. So when averaged, the Effect Score for Surf put them in, you guessed it, 11th place.

Sorry, I'm calling BS on that. And with all the discussion on what exactly "audience engagement" is supposed to be, look no further than Jersey Surf, who locked up that bullet the second they stepped on the field.

So should Surf have placed higher? Absolutely. High Effect scores would have driven them up by several placements. No, they shouldn't have won the show, and no, they aren't a Top 12 corps. But in those two captions, to be frank, Surf got dumped. So while I think the new sheet is great, the judges don't have the first freaking clue how it's supposed to work.

The good news is that I don't think the members and staff of Jersey Surf gave a single crap what the judges thought. They won the crowd, thrown babies and all.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Kamarag

[jasgre2000]

Way to not read what I said.

I said that, and I'll spell it out for you clearly:

1) Jersey Surf was scored and placed accurately in the performance captions of Visual, Brass, Guard, and Percussion

2) Jersey Surf was scored and placed accurately in the ensemble visual and ensemble music captions.

3) Jersey Surf was not scored or placed accurately in general effect music or general effect visual.

Let's look at the general Effect Music sheet. In Repertoire Effect, there are five criteria that must be met:

1. Audience Engagement

2. Audio and Visual Coordination

3. Interpretation

4. Variety of Effects

5. Creativity, Originality, Artistry

There are five boxes where they can be scored for that subcaption: The top three are Sometimes (box 3), Usually (box 4), and Always (box 5)

Music Effect Judge #1, Ken Turner, gave Surf an 8.0. Effect Judge #2, Glen Fugett, gave Surf an 8.00. This numbers are good for 11th place, slightly above Cascades, but below Academy. Scores of 8.0 puts Surf in the dead center of Usually (box 4).

Now, I don't think anyone would argue with Surf didn't engage the audience better than any other corps on the night, including Cadets. Their A/V coordination was excellent. Far better than many of the corps above them (but for sake of argument, not all). Interpretation was spot on, especially considering they played in musical idioms no one else touched.

Surf presented a much wider variety of effects than many of the corps above them. Their Creativity and Originality again, far better than most of the corps above them. Again, for sake of argument, let's say they were weak in Artistry (they weren't but for this argument we'll assume they were).

Given the criteria above, and the fact that everything was clearly readable, why did the two Music Effect judges give them such low numbers?

It looks to me like they slotted, especially given that the next corps above Surf, Academy, was .5 and .2 above them, with a much less engaging program that was questionable in areas of coordination and interpretation. Academy's variety of effects was not bad, but not what Surf was. That leaves the last bullet. Creativity and Originality can be argued either way, and again, I'll give Academy artistry for sake of argument.

So why was Academy placed above Surf in Effect Music? No freaking clue, especially considering Surf was clearly ahead in four of the five criteria on the sheet.

At least Glen Fugett threw Surf a bone in the Performer's score, placing them 7th (and thus 9th overall). Mike Stone didn't agree, placing surf squarely in 11th. So when averaged, the Effect Score for Surf put them in, you guessed it, 11th place.

Sorry, I'm calling BS on that. And with all the discussion on what exactly "audience engagement" is supposed to be, look no further than Jersey Surf, who locked up that bullet the second they stepped on the field.

So should Surf have placed higher? Absolutely. High Effect scores would have driven them up by several placements. No, they shouldn't have won the show, and no, they aren't a Top 12 corps. But in those two captions, to be frank, Surf got screwed.

So while I think the new sheet is great, the judges don't have the first freaking clue how it's supposed to work.

I think I understood exactly what you said. In a perfect world, where the judging was overhauled (as you want), where would do you think Jersey Surf should have finished this year?

And the new sheet changes have nothing to do with "audience engagement." If you want to know what the changes were really about, listen to this discussion about it (from an actual judge):

http://www.marchingroundtable.com/2012/07/19/episode-109-roundtable-unplugged-making-dci-accessible/

[CLD]

Thumbs up Kamarag for a well delivered argument.

That said, I want ALL of the corps showing on Big, Loud, Live dagnabbit!!! I'm perfectly willing to spend the extra time in a theater, I'd even pay a higher price AND buy more of their uber expensive popcorn if $$ are all that matter to the venues.

[Kamarag]

I think I understood exactly what you said. In a perfect world, where the judging was overhauled (as you want), where would do you think Jersey Surf should have finished this year?

And the new sheet changes have nothing to do with "audience engagement." If you want to know what the changes were really about, listen to this discussion about it (from an actual judge):

http://www.marchingroundtable.com/2012/07/19/episode-109-roundtable-unplugged-making-dci-accessible/

Not quite. Audience Engagement is the first bullet on the Repertoire Effect side of both GE sheets. It's a new addition to the effect sheets. You forget, I've been actively teaching in DCI within the last couple of years. I've lived this stuff up close.

I can't tell you where Surf should have finished this year, give they have at least two performances in Indy yet to give. I can tell you where I'd have put them, overall, tonight though...*if* effect was judged correctly. Probably about 9th. Ahead of Academy and Glassmen tonight, and ahead of Troopers, Colts, Mandarins and Pioneer last night. So what's that put them at...15th maybe, as opposed to 19th? A jump, but not a huge one, given the issues in ensemble and performance captions.