"Pushing the Boundaries of Innovation" vs "Tradition"

[BRASSO]

The corps staffs and admins create the environment they want to compete under in a democratic manner, by voting on proposals during their winter meetings.

Correct. As you and I'm sure others are aware, Madison Scouts Brass Arranger ( and the theatre " BLAST " co originator ) James Mason submitted a proposal at the last Winters DCI Meeting to include a new " Entertainment Caption " onto the new judging sheets, but it was rejected as it did not have the votes neccessary for passage. You are correct that sometimes changes take time before others are on board with new ideas and proposals. Maybe this proposal ( like the A&E proposal of years ago ) will eventually find its way into approval at some future date, Mike.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BRASSO

[Kevin Powell]

Correct. As you and I'm sure others are aware, Madison Scouts Brass Arranger James Mason submitted a proposal at the last WintersDCI Meeting to include a new " Entertainment Caption " onto the new judging sheets, but it was rejected as it did not have the votes neccessary for passage. You are correct that sometimes changes take time before others are on board with new ideas and proposals. Maybe this proposal ( like the A&E proposal of a years ago ) will eventually find its way into approval at some future date.

I realize(d) this but still believe that the animals are running the zoo (just my opinion). Here is a big question with this being said and seeing that we pay the bills in this democratic system.

WHO REPRESENTS US - THE FAN?

[BRASSO]

Those division do not directly compete against each other. That is the flaw.

Say Madison went traditional - they would still want to compete against Blue Devils.

Who says so ? and who said that the Traditional Division and the Avard Garde Division would be competing against one another ?

It would be just the opposite. They would NOT be competing against one another. You missed the central point of it all apparently, so perhaps this is why you reject the idea outright. The judging criteria would be different.

The James Mason proposal for an " Entertainment Caption ", rejected by the current DCI membership last winter, would have enough votes in the Tradional Division of like minded Corps Directors for passage. Under these circumstance of a substantive change in the judging sheets the notion that Mason and the Madison Scouts would stay in the Avant Garde Division to want to " compete agaqinst the Blue Devils " would be HIGHLY unlikely in my view. With the passage of Mason's " Entertainment Caption " onto the judges sheets in the Traditional Division you can bet your life that the Blue Devils would opt for the Avart Garde Division as that division would stick with the old sheets for their Division. Meanwhile, fans get to see both Corps in performance and in competition with like minded shows in their own divisions. Keep in my mind, my proposal would allow a Corps to change Divisions with an announcement in the offseason which Division they intend to compete in and under which judging sheets. Theoretically then, BD could opt to compete in the Traditional Division some year(s),to test their mettle with a retro show if they so desired. We leave the door open for that. BD might be intriqued with the opportunity to demonstrate to the world that they can win a title under BOTH an Avant Garde Division as well as a Traditional Division. They've conquered the Avart Garde world several times of late now. This could prove their versatility, and a new and refeshing challenge for them, who knows. Same with the Cadets... and all the others too. The notion that the Madison Scouts today are " competing with the Blue Devils " is not the case anyway.. not really. They are miles apart not only in scores, but in their approaches to Drum Corps. Let them both " march to the beat of a different drummer " that they hear in their head, and be rewarded on the judging sheets... both of them... for such.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BRASSO

[Kevin Powell]

I got your point - I think it was my point you missed.

I am saying that "Entertaining Caption" and a "Innovative Caption" could be on the same sheets in the same division. PARTs of these two columns would work AGAINST one another. a plus in one column equals a negative in another column (UNLESS it is progressive and entertaining - which is the end goal)

Hence why I would say an Entertaining show could defeat an Innovative Show. The best of both worlds competing together.

I said it is a more difficult fix to figure out but I do believe it would be a more sustainable fix for the entire activity than dividing.

Who says so ? and who said that the Traditional Division and the Avard Garde Division would be competing against one another ?

It would be just the opposite. They would NOT be competing against one another. You missed the central point of it all apparently, so perhaps this is why you reject the idea outright. The judging criteria would be different.

The Jsmes Mason proposal for an " Entertainment Caption ", rejected by the current DCI membership last winter, weould have enough votes in the Tradional Division of like minded Corps Directors for passage. Under these circumstance of a substantive chasnge in the judging sheets the notion that Mason and the Madison Scouts would stay in the Avant Garde Division to want to " compete agaqinst the Blue Devils " would be HIGHLY unlikely in my view. With the passage of Mason's " Entertainment Caption " onto the judges sheets you can bet your life that the Blue Devils would opt for the Avart Garde Division as that division would stick with the old sheets for their Division. Meanwhile, fans get to see both Corps in performance and in competition with like minded shows in their own divisions.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Kevin Powell

[BRASSO]

I got your point - I think it was my point you missed.

I am saying that "Entertaining Caption" and a "Innovative Caption" could be on the same sheets in the same division.

Its been voted down. Now what do we do ?

Mason's " Entertainment Caption " proposal lost. Should he make his brass charts artsy fartsy chop and bop,.mostly unrecognizable music now to try and move his Corps up ?

Or punt the ball ? What do they do ? You tell me, as the judging sheets are not changing now that these new ones have been implemented and the judges are all the same faces. If you don't support a 2 Division Traditional Division and Avant Garde Division then what we have now is what we'll have again and again. You agree ?.... or not ?

Edited August 15, 2012 by BRASSO

[MikeN]

I still don't think a case has been made for even what "traditional" means. Color pre? Non-grounded pits? Piston-rotor G bugles? 2v G bugles? 3v G bugles? Mylar heads only? Tri-toms only? Quads? Quints? Sextets? Single bass? Double bass? Tuned basses? Only tuned basses bigger than 20"? No rifle tosses? No flag tosses? Only 4's? 6's? Only symmetrical drill?

For that matter, what does "avant garde" even mean? Musically, are we opposed to splicing different pieces together? Or only more than two, as BD's opener in 2000 - quite melodic - was the Prelude from two different Hermann movies?

I just don't think you can split on arbitrary lines. How in the world would you make that happen?

Mike

[MikeN]

I guess my point is that you can't legislate changes via equipment. The surest, easiest and fastest way to change the entire activity is to make sure execution is 100% distinct from demand and design, and give every corps a fair shake at it. If Madison can earn as much GE for communcating their show to the audience as BD can for communicating *their* show, then you will see real change.

Mike

[BRASSO]

I still don't think a case has been made for even what "traditional" means.

Not fifes and drums.. not 1770's " Tradition ", Mike.

The Judging sheets would change among the 2 divisions. The Traditional Division sheets will reward " Entertainment " in the sheets.. yes, a subjective thing to judge for sure, but lets face it we are already into the realm of " subjectivity judging " when we ask the judges to judge a " Music's General Effect " for example, no ? The Avant Gard Division would reward innovation on their sheets. They'd be a separate caption ( as Mason of the Madison Scouts proposed ) for " Entertainment " in the Traditional Division , but not in the Avant Garde Division. BOTH Divisions Champion would win the title by performance execution above all else however.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BRASSO

[Hup234]

I will start off by saying that I am a traditionalist. I like the activity unplugged with G-Bugles.

Now that I have that out of the way, The changes in DCI have uncovered different ways for groups to perform and expand the activity. George Zingali broke ground in the way we marched and changed the activity. Introduction of Multi-valve instruments opened these arts to more technically challenging music. Introduction of Multi-key expanded that evolution a little further. The introduction of Amplification put a new texture and element on the field that could be quite useful. The Introduction of electronic instruments has expanded on the use of amplification. WGI has brought new ideas of movement much like that of Zingali. Percussion is also expanding by leaps and bounds.

Now I will throw out the question. Why are there boundaries and limitations? Now is the time to get rid of them completely and watch what happens. There is no reason woodwinds and strings should not be allowed on the field. There is no reason that Lights, Lasers, and Video Projection should not be allowed. There is no reason that Animals, mechanical prop and even jet packs should not be allowed on the field. There should be no limitation is size and numbers of each corps - that should be determined by the show. The only limitation I see that is need is the time on the field - Time getting on - and time getting off.

No Holds Barred Cage match to the finish.

This could end ALL the controversy and truly expand the ART in leaps and bounds. It also opens a door for traditionalist to truly explore "tradition". Through deconstruction, each corps could ultimately find it's correct path. Traditional corps would stand out as innovators much like post-modern artist. SO OLD IT IS NEW.

A proposal like this could either destroy DCI or divide DCI into categories in which all the fans could enjoy. Yes there would be issues in judging, but there would need to be recognition for each corps for who they are. There would need to be "Outstanding Entertainment", "Outstanding Innovation", "Outstanding tradition" awards that push the activity to grow in all directions - There is not just one path and those who take the path least traveled could definitely have a chance to STAND OUT.

This may be the only way to truly define what the future of DCI is.

Sir: I congratulate you, as now Webster's has access to a remarkable redefinition of "traditionalist".

It reminds me of one time when a beloved local historic building was threatened with demolition, and a man jumped up at the meeting, called himself a "staunch preservationist" and as such he insisted ... he demanded! ... that the building in question be thoroughly photographed before it was to be razed.

True story.

[Kevin Powell]

I guess my point is that you can't legislate changes via equipment. The surest, easiest and fastest way to change the entire activity is to make sure execution is 100% distinct from demand and design, and give every corps a fair shake at it. If Madison can earn as much GE for communcating their show to the audience as BD can for communicating *their* show, then you will see real change.

Mike

Clear up the GE caption so that is has clear intent. To myself, GE means "General Effect" and that tends to have a broad array of interpretation.