For Dinosaurs Only

[GUARDLING]

So when BD's shows this year were met with a lot of silence (go ahead and disagree with me on that.."where I was sitting there was lots of cheering" ... ok); that means that.....the fans were engaged. Sure.

ok the flip side to that is ( I wont mention other corps ) but corp[ B who came in 32nd place ( you get my point )should be the winner because there were some baby throwin and engaged the audience as you define it?..

[GUARDLING]

I thought it was 2 dci and 1 dca staff, you've repeated it so many times I have it memorized. Yes, you know it all.

pay attention...thats what it is..hey if you dont want an opionion from someone who actually does this then fine stay in your own little world.I say it only at times not to justify..i really could care less but comments like that are the reason so many dont allow members as well as staff to indulge here....thats another reason I never say who Im withyet another who doesnt really want to hear the why...just the why im right....bye....

PS I dont remember asking you what experience you bring to the table so i mention mine only to let some know im bringing a perspective from someone actually doing this...

Edited September 5, 2012 by GUARDLING

[BRASSO]

I disagree with the premise. I loved when I marched...and I love the shows of today. Drum corps was changing a lot all through my era of marching, teaching and judging...1964-80. There was nothing 'wrong' then, and there is nothing 'wrong' now. Each era brings new and exciting elements to the activity.

I agree with this sentiment too, MikeD.

Sometimes I wish we could all get past this, and ask ourselves what " changes " we'd all like to see adopted in the future Corps show performances and why we believe our proposal changes in show performances might increase the size of audiences. I believe we ALL are on the same page here in wanting to grow the Drum Corps show audience base. What should Corps " change " in their show performances in the future to increase the size of audiences at shows ? Any suggestions, MikeD ?

Edited September 5, 2012 by BRASSO

[actucker]

So when BD's shows this year were met with a lot of silence (go ahead and disagree with me on that.."where I was sitting there was lots of cheering" ... ok); that means that.....the fans were engaged. Sure.

Let's not be condescending.

Yes, the reaction to BD was different than that of some other corps. Is cheering the only indication of engagement? If so, then you're assuming every fan in the seats is pretty one dimensional. In the conversations I've had with my circle of people who are involved with, or fans of the activity, the general attitude is that while BD's show wasn't particularly accessible, but very engaging. Most didn't get it at first read, or even at second read. That didn't stop them from appreciating it, or even enjoying it. I myself loved that show, but the first time I saw it, I wasn't cheering or freaking out. The ending of the show wasn't really written for that kind of response anyway. You didn't hear a ton of crazy cheering at the end of Vanguard's show in 2000 either. The ending of the show didn't call for that. Didn't stop the show from being "engaging".

Speaking of engaging, here's dictionary.com's definition of "engage".

to occupy the attention or efforts of

Notice that it says nothing about cheering, or a vocal response. Only that it holds one's interest. I can tell you, very few people were not paying attention when BD went on at the shows I went to.

Again, the term engaging is NOT ambiguous. Lots of shows are engaging in lots of different ways.

[JimF-LowBari]

Except you ignore that almost all of those corps that folded over time had very little, if anything, to do with DCI.

Or the roughly same percentage of loss in the Senior side world.....

[GUARDLING]

Let's not be condescending.

Yes, the reaction to BD was different than that of some other corps. Is cheering the only indication of engagement? If so, then you're assuming every fan in the seats is pretty one dimensional. In the conversations I've had with my circle of people who are involved with, or fans of the activity, the general attitude is that while BD's show wasn't particularly accessible, but very engaging. Most didn't get it at first read, or even at second read. That didn't stop them from appreciating it, or even enjoying it. I myself loved that show, but the first time I saw it, I wasn't cheering or freaking out. The ending of the show wasn't really written for that kind of response anyway. You didn't hear a ton of crazy cheering at the end of Vanguard's show in 2000 either. The ending of the show didn't call for that. Didn't stop the show from being "engaging".

Speaking of engaging, here's dictionary.com's definition of "engage".

to occupy the attention or efforts of

Notice that it says nothing about cheering, or a vocal response. Only that it holds one's interest. I can tell you, very few people were not paying attention when BD went on at the shows I went to.

Again, the term engaging is NOT ambiguous. Lots of shows are engaging in lots of different ways.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: on all points

[audiodb]

But why EVER would they want to? The instructors caucus had been asking for A&E for a decade before they were legalized.

Here's why....if it has the potential to harm DCI financially.

Items that are not particularly popular fade away or are not used to any great extent...e.g. amplified singing. Just hasn't caught on. Nor has extensive spoken dialogue. It isn't running rampant through DCI. They don't have to be made illegal.

If something can hurt DCI financially, DCI might want to disallow it. Take for example the bans on use of water, bare feet, or pyrotechnics in shows....all items that can lead to personal injury on DCI's watch. What if A&E were found to be financially damaging to DCI?

(And by the way, pre-recorded singing/dialogue is running rampant in DCI....don't know how you could have missed it. You did go to a show this year, right?)

[MikeD]

Craiga, you know I respect you man, but we can't be involved in revisionist history here to prove a point. DCI Crowds seem to be holding steady, and thats a good thing. But there is no value in trying to elevate the present by trying to paint a picture ( good or bad ) that is simply not accurate. Its serves no purpose and does not elevate the level of understanding needed to push us forward and grow this audience base that no doubt everybody wants. The past is gone, and it was not as idyllic as some sometimes make it out to be. Agreed. That said, accuracy is always the best way to approach these things. For example, the CYO Nationals in Boston used to be held at Boston College's Alumni Stadium. In the mid 60's, through the late 70's, this show brought in every year between 12,000 and 18,000 fans. I was there. I competed there. I went there other years as staff assistant, other years as a show coordinating volunteer and other years as a simple spectator. We read the press releases each year after the show to confirm our audience estimates. Those are the numbers, trust me on this. The CYO Nationals this year was a wonderful show. I enjoyed it immensely. But there were maybe 5,000-6,000 fans in attendance. Not bad by current standards. Not bad at all. But for clarity sake the crowds were nowhere near what they were at the CYO Nationals in Boston in the 60's and the 70's, and for clarity and accuracy needed to point that out to you. That said, I appreciate your insights and analysis on most things here and this is simply is one of the few, and rare times we simply disagree on something from the past... ie, audience attendence at specific shows over the years.

Those large shows were the exception, not the rule. Most of our shows in my Garfield days were at local HS stadiums, and back then many held less than 1,000 fans. Sure you had the World Open and other big shows every now and then, but we also had the "Lodi Nationals" next to Garfield, one of the many shows where they brought in the guy with the generator on his truck...parked him beyond the endzone, generator chugging away, and held the show with temporary (and dim) lights that barely lit the field.

In my Garden State Circuit days it was even worse. Those shows were sometimes not even held at a stadium at all, just a field marked off so the GSC host corps would get credit for having a show (a GSC requirement at the time).

[Grandpa]

I disagree with the premise. I loved when I marched...and I love the shows of today. Drum corps was changing a lot all through my era of marching, teaching and judging...1964-80. There was nothing 'wrong' then, and there is nothing 'wrong' now. Each era brings new and exciting elements to the activity.

Sorry Mike but this is a little too Polyanna for me.

There were problems back then. There are problems now. DCI is not, has never been, will never be, perfect.

[MikeD]

No, I'm saying that neither you nor I know for sure what was meant by introducing the term "engaging." We each have our speculation. That's all.

You do know that Guardling teaches at the WC level, don't you, so he is a lot more "in the know" than most of us here.