Kamarag Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 the amp thing is quite simple,...........most regular season DCA shows host 1000 - 2000 fans,...........finals 5k,............no amps needed,.............dci thinks they need them to fill a stadium with sound for 30,000 fans at finals,.............carry on,.... Well, no. So much pit contribution was lost in Annapolis. To be perfectly honest, all but the largest front ensembles got completely washed out where I was sitting (dead center, two thirds of the way up). Kidsgrove in particular was just begging to be amplified, particularly the djimbe drumming at the start of the program. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Look - you got what you wanted with DCI - go enjoy it there. Leave DCA alone, OK? You don't need absolutely EVERYthing your own way. Leave a little something for the others, like your Mom taught you.... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Two comments on amplification for the pit: 1) If it "isn't for the fans, who is it for?" It IS for the fans, and it IS for the judges. The fans pay to hear musical performances at their absolute best. High quality keyboards were NOT designed or intended to be hammered on with hard plastic mallets. In order to be heard clearly and for the musical effect to come through against the larger and often louder horn and drum lines, musicality and nuance is often sacrificed. People who play these instruments generally know that. So the FANS would be rewarded with a better musical ensemble sound if the pit could be amplified. I heard quite a few Music Effect judge tapes this season from DCA ... and it was a common theme to point out the the front ensemble disappeared at all of the loudest brass impact points. Well, if your circuit would bring itself into the correct decade, maybe you COULD hear them. 2) How much do you think it actually costs in real dollars to amplify the pit? I have seen lots and lots of comments in nearly every thread that ever broaches the topic of electronics about "the added expense" and how the extra costs will be so detrimental to the corps fiscal well-being. How much money do you people think we are talking about here? I'm quite curious about how out of proportion this misconception really is. if you want to do it well? I'd say probably $40k looking at what some DCi corps have rolled out there, and they can't do it right yet. Now, how many DCA corps have that much extra laying around? They don't get the endorsement deals DCI corps do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Well, no. So much pit contribution was lost in Annapolis. To be perfectly honest, all but the largest front ensembles got completely washed out where I was sitting (dead center, two thirds of the way up). Kidsgrove in particular was just begging to be amplified, particularly the djimbe drumming at the start of the program. odd. I saw what 5 rows in fromt of you and picked up tons of pit nuances 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairbear Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Having experience with sound systems and being a bass player in bar bands, I can say this about the electronics issue: Sound systems can be affordable and simple, or they can be as much as your wallet can handle. For what DCI corps are doing, it requires a full range speaker system consisting of bass dumps, mid range cabinets plus horn "hi packs", multiple sound system amplifiers mounted in a rack, a "snake" (multiple microphone cables bundled together)and at least a 16 channel mixing board. Add the microphones required, stands, extra cables, road cases for all that gear... well... it can get pretty "pricey" depending on the quality. If a corps uses a synth and an electric bass, add the cost of those instruments and the amplifiers for them. Once you have all this gear, add the cost of adapting all of it for transportation to and from the front sideline. The final factor is the brand name. Good systems cost big bucks. I've got over 3 grand invested in my personal instruments and amplifiers. I use "Eden" bass cabinets/speakers with an Ampeg 350 watt amplifier. Thats 1,200.00 dollars. My basses cost 1,300.00 each and I haven't included the cost of stands, cables and cases. So... For a DCI corps with all the electronics "bells and whistles", Jeff Reams estimate is just about on target. While I'm at it, don't forget the cost of maintenance on such equipment. There is a good reason why such gear is packed in road cases that can withstand a herd of stampeding elephants. The stuff is fragile. My quess is that most DCI corps use a system in excess of 1,000 watts for the bass dumps, 800 watts on the midrange speakers and 150 or more watts on the high frequency horns. A good "sound man" in my business can make as much for a one nighter, as the musicians onstage. He (or She) has to be able to "read" the acoustics of the space the system operates in and mix the sound accordingly, so that all frequencies and instruments are balanced. Mixing sound in an outdoor venue (or a "Dome")is difficult, at best. I suspect this is why Jeff (and possibly others here) recognize that some DCI corps have yet to "get it right". First, there is a learning curve. Second, those corps have time limits imposed on them, for setting up the front ensemble and getting a level check. Whoever has the task of mixing the sound has very little time in which to "read" the venue. There are ways around that. A corps could choose to just amplify the mallet instruments, but that would still require a full range system, because the marimbas are 4 plus octave instruments. Example: The bass keys of a Marimba would be lost with a simple midrange limited system. You need amplified bass dumps, in order to hear those notes. I haven't seen a DCI corps sound system up close, nor have I studied how the corps manage the task. I do know this: at 60 years old, I don't enjoy hauling a sound system in and out of bars and clubs. I am considering downsizing the amount of gear I pack into a gig. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairbear Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) Edit number one. Edited November 3, 2012 by hairbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairbear Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) Edit number two. Edited November 3, 2012 by hairbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairbear Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 (edited) edited because of a "quadruple post". Hey.. it IS almost 4 in the morning. LOL! Edited November 3, 2012 by hairbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Having experience with sound systems and being a bass player in bar bands, I can say this about the electronics issue: Sound systems can be affordable and simple, or they can be as much as your wallet can handle. For what DCI corps are doing, it requires a full range speaker system consisting of bass dumps, mid range cabinets plus horn "hi packs", multiple sound system amplifiers mounted in a rack, a "snake" (multiple microphone cables bundled together)and at least a 16 channel mixing board. Add the microphones required, stands, extra cables, road cases for all that gear... well... it can get pretty "pricey" depending on the quality. If a corps uses a synth and an electric bass, add the cost of those instruments and the amplifiers for them. Once you have all this gear, add the cost of adapting all of it for transportation to and from the front sideline. The final factor is the brand name. Good systems cost big bucks. I've got over 3 grand invested in my personal instruments and amplifiers. I use "Eden" bass cabinets/speakers with an Ampeg 350 watt amplifier. Thats 1,200.00 dollars. My basses cost 1,300.00 each and I haven't included the cost of stands, cables and cases. So... For a DCI corps with all the electronics "bells and whistles", Jeff Reams estimate is just about on target. While I'm at it, don't forget the cost of maintenance on such equipment. There is a good reason why such gear is packed in road cases that can withstand a herd of stampeding elephants. The stuff is fragile. My quess is that most DCI corps use a system in excess of 1,000 watts for the bass dumps, 800 watts on the midrange speakers and 150 or more watts on the high frequency horns. A good "sound man" in my business can make as much for a one nighter, as the musicians onstage. He (or She) has to be able to "read" the acoustics of the space the system operates in and mix the sound accordingly, so that all frequencies and instruments are balanced. Mixing sound in an outdoor venue (or a "Dome")is difficult, at best. I suspect this is why Jeff (and possibly others here) recognize that some DCI corps have yet to "get it right". First, there is a learning curve. Second, those corps have time limits imposed on them, for setting up the front ensemble and getting a level check. Whoever has the task of mixing the sound has very little time in which to "read" the venue. There are ways around that. A corps could choose to just amplify the mallet instruments, but that would still require a full range system, because the marimbas are 4 plus octave instruments. Example: The bass keys of a Marimba would be lost with a simple midrange limited system. You need amplified bass dumps, in order to hear those notes. I haven't seen a DCI corps sound system up close, nor have I studied how the corps manage the task. I do know this: at 60 years old, I don't enjoy hauling a sound system in and out of bars and clubs. I am considering downsizing the amount of gear I pack into a gig. ...........or, a Mister Microphone from Wal-Mart!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hairbear Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Bill, for the Win! 3 "Mr. Microphones" and a car battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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