What will help DCI become more entertaining

[garfield]

Stu,

You can have shows with incredible depth that communicate to the judges and the fans! The problem is that it's usually performance issues that hold those corps back from the top spots. Crown was super deep last year, and fans everywhere lit babies on fire and burned them and threw them at thecorps....but the percussion was dirty as hell and, IMO, the hop skip jump stuff kept the visual scores down.

You're looking to the word communicate in a different way than Michael was. he means communicate to the judges not via meetings or librettos...he means reach inside their souls, their hearts,.....let them not just be judges, but be fans too!! the biggest issue is the effect sheet. IMO, the flaw with effect is a corps can be super heavy programming for the intellectual and be rewarded to the max...but be short on the emotional and aesthetic. To me, and many people, thethought for effect should be that a corps should be balanced on all 3...and you can be super deep with this....and that's the best way to achieve maximum effect. However the system doesn't seem to work that way.

That's what Michael has been aiming for....be deep.....but cover all facets of the triad of effect....and in turn you score well AND you get burning babies thrown at you.....if you perform it well.

Cadets Angels and Demons is a perfect example....everyone got it. Ins ome cases, you could see the moments coming before they got there. And people cheered even if it was a touch predictable....but you had a lot of intellectual effect, you had tons of emotional effect and you had tons of aesthetic effect. Same for Phantom in 08, and I know people who saw it and had no idea the Spartacus story and actually thought the music was from the movie, not the ballet.

But then you have a BD 08-12, which is overly heavy on the intellectual side, yet it pops huge numbers. That's the disconnect.

Fascinating.

[garfield]

NO KIDDING! Or I'll hear snare drummer instructors fail to grasp a) the importance of a good front ensemble and b) the need to balance the battery to the front ensemble (or really, the importance of constantly rehearsing WITH the front ensemble).

It's funny, as a staffer/designer I love to spar with the judges about what their missing, why my group is achieving at high levels, etc. As a judge, I don't mind sparring with staffers from the opposite end. Of course, my wife will tell anyone I've never been one to shy away from arguing

Ppfftt!!

I gotta tell ya', I'm really enjoying peering into your judges brains. Both you and Ream (and I think he likes to argue, too, but probably not with his wife).

[garfield]

I too am talking communication. I am just at times using different words. I am also explaining the three parts of effect that judges look for, and IMO, how they should be applied and rewarded.

So obviously, the wording I am using is confusing you, so I'll try to say it a different way:

Judges are fans too. But the set up right now, especially on effect focuses primarily on the super deep, and to do the stuff the crowd likes is kind of considered pandering, regardless of how well it's performed....which is communication from the kids.

so, whatMichael's aim was to get the corps to do some of all of it....the fun, the loud, the burning babies....and be rewarded for it all, not just for focusing on for lack of better terms, "educating" the fans.

Basically he wanted shows that moved us, made us think and made us scream...and for the judging community to reward it.

So far, it hasn't quite worked like that...because trust me, to many fans nationwide, there was no aesthetic in Dada.

But...not all emotional has to be happy joy either. it can be effective to be ###### off. There I think to many fans, BD succeeded

/>

BD's Dada certainly made me think. Did it move me? Not unless you count being amazed at their technical proficiency. Did they make me want to scream? Yea, but not in a good way, even if I had babies. :tongue:/>

I gave it my best shot. I read up on Dada and I understood his intent in his time (it was stupid, IMO). But his message didn't move me in this age. I'd rather see the Stars and Stripes not mocked these days.

But I'm glad to hear that Michael would have been displeased as well (according to your explanations). If that's not what he was hoping for, I guess I'm glad even if I do appreciate the diversity of performances. If I'm a luddite in the eyes of those designers, I'm OK with that knowing the company I have in that camp.

What prompts me to go back every year as a fan is the diversity of the shows and the smiles on the faces. There's a huge diversity that's so wide, I wonder if marketing that, alone and instead of just the "Top" corps, would make DCI more entertaining?

"The Wide World of Marching Entertainment"

[corpsband]

"The Wide World of Marching Entertainment"

[Stu]

I too am talking communication. I am just at times using different words. I am also explaining the three parts of effect that judges look for, and IMO, how they should be applied and rewarded.

So obviously, the wording I am using is confusing you, so I'll try to say it a different way:

Judges are fans too. But the set up right now, especially on effect focuses primarily on the super deep, and to do the stuff the crowd likes is kind of considered pandering, regardless of how well it's performed....which is communication from the kids.

so, whatMichael's aim was to get the corps to do some of all of it....the fun, the loud, the burning babies....and be rewarded for it all, not just for focusing on for lack of better terms, "educating" the fans.

Basically he wanted shows that moved us, made us think and made us scream...and for the judging community to reward it.

So far, it hasn't quite worked like that...because trust me, to many fans nationwide, there was no aesthetic in Dada.

But...not all emotional has to be happy joy either. it can be effective to be ###### off. There I think to many fans, BD succeeded

:tongue:/>/>

> "Micheal's aim was to get the corps to do some of all of it....the fun, the loud, the burning babies.... not all emotional has to be happy joy either."

Happy, Sad, Bright, Dark, depth of emotion, 'without the need for deep intellectual cerebral communication'... For the most part Phantom Regiment, Madison Scouts, and a plethora of others (including some great Cadet shows and great BD shows) have done those very things for over forty years in a very effective manner.

> "...and for the judging community to reward it. So far, it hasn't quite worked like that... the set up right now, especially on effect focuses primarily on the super deep, and to do the stuff the crowd likes is kind of considered pandering"

Yes judges need to be entertained; but therein is the disconnect in the modern way of judging Effect, not the Technical, but the Effect; the ego in believing the shows are about their own personal deep educated intellectual cerebral gratification not the edification of the audience. If they believe producing shows for the paying public's edification is pandering, which is to provide gratification for 'others' not themselves, and communicating to the audience is also pandering, belief that a show for the audience caters to the 'weaknesses' of others not to their own intellectualism, then we can forget about ever increasing a fan base and just turn this activity over to ivory tower academic egoism and the few non-judges who receive entertainment gratification at that level.

[MikeD]

I'm curious, you judges: do you ever root for the underdog in your scoring?

Hmmm...I have judged, between corps and band, somewhere around 200 competitions since 1976, my first year judging drums in the Garden State Circuit. About 150 of them are MB shows from 1979 through 2 years ago, my most recent judging.

I never 'root' for the underdog...I root for all kids to perform as well as they can. Now, when I am making comments the type of comments I make does vary depending on the relative level of the group. I always try and find positive things to say to balance the negative, no matter how inexperienced the band is.

I also always speak to the members in my comments...I want any director to be able to play my evaluation for their kids without worrying about what the commentary will be. Sometimes as a staff member I find the comments to be too dense or overly negative or on occasion too pompous.

[Jeff Ream]

I'm curious, you judges: do you ever root for the underdog in your scoring?

no. You can't. you have to follow the criteria and put down the numbers they earn. Plus you're just piece of the pie on your sheet

[Jeff Ream]

> "Micheal's aim was to get the corps to do some of all of it....the fun, the loud, the burning babies.... not all emotional has to be happy joy either."

Happy, Sad, Bright, Dark, depth of emotion, 'without the need for deep intellectual cerebral communication'... For the most part Phantom Regiment, Madison Scouts, and a plethora of others (including some great Cadet shows and great BD shows) have done those very things for over forty years in a very effective manner.

> "...and for the judging community to reward it. So far, it hasn't quite worked like that... the set up right now, especially on effect focuses primarily on the super deep, and to do the stuff the crowd likes is kind of considered pandering"

Yes judges need to be entertained; but therein is the disconnect in the modern way of judging Effect, not the Technical, but the Effect; the ego in believing the shows are about their own personal deep educated intellectual cerebral gratification not the edification of the audience. If they believe producing shows for the paying public's edification is pandering, which is to provide gratification for 'others' not themselves, and communicating to the audience is also pandering, belief that a show for the audience caters to the 'weaknesses' of others not to their own intellectualism, then we can forget about ever increasing a fan base and just turn this activity over to ivory tower academic egoism and the few non-judges who receive entertainment gratification at that level.

the disconnect is in how the new sheet is applied. I think we will see improvements

[Stu]

the disconnect is in how the new sheet is applied. I think we will see improvements

So in your opinion, it is merely the application, or misapplication, of the sheets by the judges that is the disconnect; and 'not' the fact that the judges receive both written and verbal communication from the design staff concerning the nuances of the concepts all summer long, while the only communication from the staff to the audience whatsoever is just the the 11 1/2 min show. Hmmmm, I think it is the second reason here not the first which is the disconnect.

[garfield]

no. You can't. you have to follow the criteria and put down the numbers they earn. Plus you're just piece of the pie on your sheet

Wait. You get pie?

I didn't know judges get pie during a show. I like pie.

I should have been a judge.