Scores..."where everything is made up and the points don't mat

[Stu]

That sets up the question though of what changed? Since the same staff and coaches were there, the same lessons about "winning" should have been there. So maybe it isn't always about being taught to win, if there isn't an inherent talent level there in the first place.

With the Florida Marlins, if memory serves correctly, the owner decided to cash-in and make as much 'instant profit' as possible off the 1997 World Series win. So many, many, many players were traded and/or let go to minimize the future contract pay-outs and maximize the instant profit. Thus the 1998 season roster looked vastly different.

[JimF-LowBari]

hotel is now I think a Comfort Inn right off the exit for McArthur Road on 22......I can say I was there when the corps was kicked out twice under 2 different hotel chains

I remember leaving the place in '85... Buses were held up until the room contents were *ahem* returned to the rooms.

And a certain horn player (not me) had to return a huge cheapo painting that he somehow got in the luggage bay.

Still remember Tree "Don't know to ask how he got it out without being seen or what the #### he was going to do with it".

[DAvery]

In the case of grades in an academic environment, the school district sets the ‘minimum’ goals. The school district typically sets 70% (2.0) as minimum goal and then it is up to the student to meet or exceed that minimum standard. The student certainly can, and should, set a personal goal higher than the set minimum, but the student should nnever be allowed to set a lower goal than meeting the set minimum standard. This also applies to something like university entrance requirements; each university sets the minimum standard to attend, and it is up to the applicant to meet, or better yet, exceed that minimum entrance requirement. The idea of letting kids set their own minimum standards of achievement not the adults, and allowing the kids to perform lower than the minimum standards set by the adults without dire consequences, is actually doing a grave disservice to the children.

Not entirely correct. In my district anything above a 60% is passing. But even that does not really mean that much. A student can fail every class and still go on to the next grade level. They only way a student can be held back is with the parent's approval. But anyway, I never advocated students setting their own goals. When I begin a season I have an idea of what the performance goals should be. But I do also discuss these with the students, as I beleive they have to have a "buy in". But I have never set a goal of coming in first place and never will. If we have first place as a goal and attain it, that just means we are better than every band at the show. But it does not mean we are the best band we can be. I believe setting a goal of winning first place is very short sighted and sometimes even counter-productive. If my band comes out next year and beats everyone by 10 points during September, is our goal just to stay ahead of the other bands? I contend the goal would be the same as before the season began, to make the show the best it can be.

[Stu]

In my district anything above a 60% is passing. But even that does not really mean that much. A student can fail every class and still go on to the next grade level. They only way a student can be held back is with the parent's approval.

After I read the above sentences you wrote I gave a deep sigh; then typed, erased, typed, erased, and finally decided to keep the following: Our society reaps what it sows; and we will eventually get what we deserve from our ever increasing acceptance of lower and lower standards in the name of self-esteem and relativism.

[Ghost]

A student can fail every class and still go on to the next grade level.

That's why too many college freshmen have to take remedial courses during their first semester. HS's, mostly public, for some reason, keep passing students (like jocks) who shouldn't move on. Just another nail in the coffin of the collapse of a strong USA.

[fsubone]

With the Florida Marlins, if memory serves correctly, the owner decided to cash-in and make as much 'instant profit' as possible off the 1997 World Series win. So many, many, many players were traded and/or let go to minimize the future contract pay-outs and maximize the instant profit. Thus the 1998 season roster looked vastly different.

I remember that happening. Problem with Kentucky as well. Large amount of turnover. This does create the parallel of why corps with some amazing staffs that have produced success can drop off the next year after a big age-out class. Staff can teach the same lessons about how to win every year, but if the talent level isn't there, then the results won't be the same. Unless you're Michigan, then a big class of freshmen can come in under the same system for years, and get amazing results out of it.

[Stu]

I remember that happening. Problem with Kentucky as well. Large amount of turnover. This does create the parallel of why corps with some amazing staffs that have produced success can drop off the next year after a big age-out class. Staff can teach the same lessons about how to win every year, but if the talent level isn't there, then the results won't be the same. Unless you're Michigan, then a big class of freshmen can come in under the same system for years, and get amazing results out of it.

Since organizational activities like DCI have an age-out limit there will always be performer turn-over year to year. So stability of the staff is a major key to staying near the top (see Blue Devils). Might pop the top off a closed can 'o worms here but in a ‘subjective competition’ type system the placements from year to year normally do not drastically change (I say normally because you do occasionally have a situation like Regiment falling from 1^st to 9^th in one year); but you never ever see the last place unit from the previous year winning the grand championship the next year. That is one of the great things about 'objective sports', as opposed to 'subjective competitions'; that the last place 2012 Boston Red Sox can become the 2013 World Series Champion and the 2012 dismal 2-14 last place Kansas City Chiefs can now be 8-0 in 2013.

[DAvery]

After I read the above sentences you wrote I gave a deep sigh; then typed, erased, typed, erased, and finally decided to keep the following: Our society reaps what it sows; and we will eventually get what we deserve from our ever increasing acceptance of lower and lower standards in the name of self-esteem and relativism.

Not really the point of this thread, but I agree with your assessment. But it is all about the dollars. School districts are afraid of lawsuits. But in Ohio where I live it is much worse. We have direct votes for school levies, which means every parent is a potential yes (or no) vote. Every decision by an administrator (and some teachers) in Ohio is thought of in political terms. If you make an unpopular decision, how many votes will it cost you? In Ohio, we don’t make educational decisions, we make political ones.

[perc2100]

Not entirely correct. In my district anything above a 60% is passing. But even that does not really mean that much. A student can fail every class and still go on to the next grade level. They only way a student can be held back is with the parent's approval. But anyway, I never advocated students setting their own goals. When I begin a season I have an idea of what the performance goals should be. But I do also discuss these with the students, as I beleive they have to have a "buy in". But I have never set a goal of coming in first place and never will. If we have first place as a goal and attain it, that just means we are better than every band at the show. But it does not mean we are the best band we can be. I believe setting a goal of winning first place is very short sighted and sometimes even counter-productive. If my band comes out next year and beats everyone by 10 points during September, is our goal just to stay ahead of the other bands? I contend the goal would be the same as before the season began, to make the show the best it can be.

In the district I teach, in Southern CA, 60% is technically passing but students don't get credit for a class unless they score a 70% or higher.