Scores..."where everything is made up and the points don't mat

[vanguard87]

The tick system was not objective but still subjective, it was still a person's opinion on what constituted as a tickable offense. But even though DCI scoring is subjective no mater ther system it is still a compitition, just like Olympic Ice Dancing is a competition, and in competition scoring and rankings do matter; winning the gold does matter. Unless...... since you claim it is all about ‘excellence’, not scores, it would therefore have been fine, great, and fabulous for you, the Vanguard members, the Vanguard staff, and the Vanguard Alum in 1989 at the DCI Finals for the announcement to have been “Here are the corps which were deemed Excellent, in no particular order: Bluecoats; Madison Scouts; Freelancers; Velvet Knights; Suncoast Sound; Crossmen; Santa Clara Vanguard; Star of Indiana; Cadets; Blue Devils; Phantom Regiment; and The Cavaliers”.

OK, I must not have been clear enough, because I agree completely with both of your objections.

1. Yes, the tick system was not objective, even though that's what it was called. The tick system was a subjective system. Calling the build-up system "subjective" was simply acknowledging reality.

2. I most certainly am not in the "it's all good" camp. I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm not downplaying the competitive aspect of drum corps at all. Maybe it's because I used the word "excellence". How about if I use the word "best"? Every corps is striving to be either the best corps in the world or the best corps in what they perceive their "tier" to be, and everyone wants to know which corps is the best, second-best, etc.

[Stu]

... I most certainly am not in the "it's all good" camp. I'm not sure where you got that from....

I came to that conclusion by the statement you wrote which was, "Excellence is what everybody really cares about--not the score." Notice you bolded the word 'really' when referring to what you think everyone cares about (ie excellence), and then proceeded to state it was 'not' (the score). I was just pointing out that if true, that what everyone really cares about is the excellence and not the scores, then nobody would mind twelve corps being deemed excellent at Finals without announcing their scores and rankings.

[garfield]

What if he stands on his hind legs hmmmmmm?

You would be speaking of turning the stripes OF a zebra vertical. I'm suggesting turning the stripes ON a zebra vertical.

But the movie Madagascar keeps running through my head...

[jjeffeory]

 

I appreciate the sentimentality of "scores don't matter" or, to paraphrase George: Scores don't matter because after every season of trying to attain high scores, we start off at zero the following year. (I, personally, don't get his rationale) But, in real life, the sentiment runs up against plain human nature that isn't squelched by de-emphasizing scores.

In the Ohio Music Educators Association (OMEA) contest results are awared as names, such as "Outstanding" or "Superior". The kids are always happy to get the highest "score" of Superior, but the moment they get off the field until the last competitor has finished, they are waiting for their actual, numerical score, when it's announced on the bus. They're happy to get a "Superior", but they're exstatic to know they "beat" their competitor.

It's the same as human nature: "You can turn the stripes on a zebra horizontal, but it's still a zebra."

Kids want to know who the winner is. Of every show. Every time.

 

...and OMEA does not have a state grand champion like so many other state competitions do, so once you get to state, you receive a rating of I-IV or whatever, where I is "Superior". From my past experience in that system, because there was never a state champion at the end of the year, the goal was to get a I or Superior at every competition including State. This is very different to most of the other states and circuits around them.

[garfield]

OK, I must not have been clear enough, because I agree completely with both of your objections.

1. Yes, the tick system was not objective, even though that's what it was called. The tick system was a subjective system. Calling the build-up system "subjective" was simply acknowledging reality.

2. I most certainly am not in the "it's all good" camp. I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm not downplaying the competitive aspect of drum corps at all. Maybe it's because I used the word "excellence". How about if I use the word "best"? Every corps is striving to be either the best corps in the world or the best corps in what they perceive their "tier" to be, and everyone wants to know which corps is the best, second-best, etc.

Careful Vanguard87, you just became the fly in "Said the spider to the fly".

[garfield]

   

...and OMEA does not have a state grand champion like so many other state competitions do, so once you get to state, you receive a rating of I-IV or whatever, where I is "Superior". From my past experience in that system, because there was never a state champion at the end of the year, the goal was to get a I or Superior at every competition including State. This is very different to most of the other states and circuits around them.

And yet, every kid in the band knows the cumulative scores at the end of the season that would have determined the "grand champion". It boggles my mind. Even having a grand champion per class would make more sense. Which is worse to a participant kid: You finished 10th out of 13 in your class, or You finished never having earned higher than "Needs work"?

[snaredude08]

The philosophy I was always taught, and really agreed with, is this: You have absolutely no control over what other groups do, or what weird algorithm a judge uses to pick a number, so don't compete with them. Rather, compete against your own potential. If you beat everyone but you haven't pushed yourself further, that's not a success. And conversely, if you got hosed but you know it was a great show and you're making great strides, that's not a failure.

[garfield]

And yet, every kid in the band knows the cumulative scores at the end of the season that would have determined the "grand champion". It boggles my mind. Even having a grand champion per class would make more sense. Which is worse to a participant kid: You finished 10th out of 13 in your class, or You finished never having earned higher than "Needs work"?

Was just corrected by the _kid. At state finals they announce the overall winner as "Grand Champion", and the second place band is awarded the "Reserve Grand Champion".

You know, it's like the way they grade cows at the county fair.

And, during the season, the caption scores are announced at each "Adjudicated Event", but not the overall scores.

[Stu]

The philosophy I was always taught, and really agreed with, is this: You have absolutely no control over what other groups do, or what weird algorithm a judge uses to pick a number, so don't compete with them. Rather, compete against your own potential. If you beat everyone but you haven't pushed yourself further, that's not a success. And conversely, if you got hosed but you know it was a great show and you're making great strides, that's not a failure.

Hmmm... while it is true that you have no 'control' over others and no 'control' over the judges, the end game with this philosophy you have is that there is no reason within DCI to have corps compete against each other at all, no reason to rank corps, no reason to have a grand champion or caption awards; just have the corps members perform for comment evaluation and thus strive to become better each week based off of comments from the evaluating team.

[Stu]

Was just corrected by the _kid. At state finals they announce the overall winner as "Grand Champion", and the second place band is awarded the "Reserve Grand Champion".

You know, it's like the way they grade cows at the county fair.

And, during the season, the caption scores are announced at each "Adjudicated Event", but not the overall scores.

Wasn't something like this tried at BOA Championships a number of years ago and backfired? If I remember correctly they only announced the Grand Champion with no actual score and no other rankings announced at all.