Stu Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Yes and no. Someone who's marched multiple years with a winning corps has a leg up, but did they win solely because of their effort, or were they given a vehicle that enabled the win? And was their effort the same as the effort of the other 149 people? I've met people in every corps that work harder than their final placement would show, and some at the top who get carried along all season to the win, without the same effort. Which person is more qualified? The point is they know how to 'win' at a highest level activity because they have been taught how to 'win' at the higest level, they have been surrounded by staff who know how to 'win', they know the effort it takes to 'win', and that is a quality trait which gives that person an advantage in real life situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 And to take it another step, is the company already a 'winner" or is it working to improve itself from the ground up. I know people who can do a great job with something that is already set up and working well. But if they have to rebuild or start pretty much from scratch they are S.O.L. Give me the folks who bust their butt with others without worrying about if they are at the top, bottom or middle. Hmmmm... I do not want my career, or my business, to be 'in the middle', and especially do not want it to be 'on the bottom of the heap irrespective of how much folks work their butt off! So, give me the folks who work smart as well as hard, are tactfully respectful but brutally honest, strive to be 'the best' at everything they do, and are never really satisfied with anything less than a 'win'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 (edited) Hmmmm... I do not want my career, or my business, to be 'in the middle', and especially do not want it to be 'on the bottom of the heap irrespective of how much folks work their butt off! So, give me the folks who work smart as well as hard, are tactfully respectful but brutally honest, strive to be 'the best' at everything they do, and are never really satisfied with anything less than a 'win'. And you learn this better from a top corps than others? Corps I was with was anywhere from last at Prelims to 6th at Finals. I could see that lot of the success had to do with instructors who could get the point across better than others. But that lesson and others I could see when we were non-Finalists. Included getting the point across from some idiot Jr High teachers I had.... And to reply to: "The point is they know how to 'win' at a highest level activity because they have been taught how to 'win' at the highest level, they have been surrounded by staff who know how to 'win', they know the effort it takes to 'win', and that is a quality trait which gives that person an advantage in real life situations." Part of the success was when we took in member of a winning corps that folded. What they brought in was experience in how much effort it took to win which was lacking. If you want to call that 'teaching to win" fine but didn't help anymore in real life as I saw it. IOW - already knew I had to bust my butt to get better but the experienced people helped show how in the corps sense. For that matter how is one "taught how to win"? My point to what you responded to is overhauling a mess takes different skills than dealing with something that runs well on it's own. If one has always been a "winner" they might not have ever dealt with a mess so I'd go with someone else. Your comparisions about top and non-top corps remind me of people who think you have to go to a "name" college to get a better education and do better in the job market. No idea what you do for a living but in the IT world I've seen that it's how you apply yourself continually and top/lesser schools/corps mean little. Put it this way, I don't see how top corps can "teach to win" in real life any better than non-top corps. IMO they win because their staff has the knowledge to design a winning show, get the idea to the members and get the members to bring it off better than other corps. Now how does this "teach" a person to "win" in real life. What I experienced in corps that helped me in real life was working with people with different background than me (I was a teenager in Sr corps LOL) and taking lumps now for long term improvement. Didn't need to be a top corps member for that. Edited October 25, 2013 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 And you learn this better from a top corps than others? Corps I was with was anywhere from last at Prelims to 6th at Finals. I could see that lot of the success had to do with instructors who could get the point across better than others. But that lesson and others I could see when we were non-Finalists. Included getting the point across from some idiot Jr High teachers I had.... And to reply to: "The point is they know how to 'win' at a highest level activity because they have been taught how to 'win' at the highest level, they have been surrounded by staff who know how to 'win', they know the effort it takes to 'win', and that is a quality trait which gives that person an advantage in real life situations." Part of the success was when we took in member of a winning corps that folded. What they brought in was experience in how much effort it took to win which was lacking. If you want to call that 'teaching to win" fine but didn't help anymore in real life as I saw it. IOW - already knew I had to bust my butt to get better but the experienced people helped show how in the corps sense. For that matter how is one "taught how to win"? My point to what you responded to is overhauling a mess takes different skills than dealing with something that runs well on it's own. If one has always been a "winner" they might not have ever dealt with a mess so I'd go with someone else. Your comparisions about top and non-top corps remind me of people who think you have to go to a "name" college to get a better education and do better in the job market. No idea what you do for a living but in the IT world I've seen that it's how you apply yourself continually and top/lesser schools/corps mean little. Put it this way, I don't see how top corps can "teach to win" in real life any better than non-top corps. IMO they win because their staff has the knowledge to design a winning show, get the idea to the members and get the members to bring it off better than other corps. Now how does this "teach" a person to "win" in real life. What I experienced in corps that helped me in real life was working with people with different background than me (I was a teenager in Sr corps LOL) and taking lumps now for long term improvement. Didn't need to be a top corps member for that. Were you, are you, disappointed and less than elated that you never won or at least ever had a chance to win the title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Were you, are you, disappointed and less than elated that you never won or at least ever had a chance to win the title? No because winning a title was never a priority for me. I joined a corps because as a Jr in HS I knew I was going to a Community College which sure didn't have a MB. So I wanted something to do where I could still play horn so all the time, effort and money in lessons didn't go to crap. Local start up corps was looking for members and when they merged with Westshoremen (who had been inactive) it was a great fit. Great fit as I enjoy the history of my hometown and was part of it being in the corps. And improving each year was an added bonus. Eh... did win the next to last American Legion title when the show was held during the National Convention so at least I did win A title. But my main priority at the time was my education in the more affordable Community College and PA State School.... I see my all my time in corps as part of a hobby or something to relax and blow (no pun intended) steam, even the years I was competing. Edited October 26, 2013 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Staff need to " win " or " place high " in their judged captions however. Rarely do we see Staff that had the captions they taught that underperformed hired back, or promoted. They need to score high within their pecking order of similarly placing Corps.. or they are demoted or dismissed by the Corps Director and their BOD. Increasingly, it is not the performers that are being judged on the field... as it is the show designers. They are being judged, and for all intents and purposes they are being judged before the performers get back on the Corps bus after the first show. Thus, I tend to agree with the marchers sentiments not to place too much emphasis on " winning ", or " placing high ", or on " the scores " Did the Cavaliers of 2012 not work their butts off ? Of course they did. Did they lack talent in 2012 compared to 2010, 2011 ? I don't think so. Their scores did not reflect their hard work, their vet retention rates, nor their dedication, nor their talent. The judges scored their Corps pretty much by the first show. They lost a key staff design writer in the offseason, and that was that. They were dead in the water competitively in 2012 before their first show, compared to 2010, 2011. So yes, marchers should not place too much emphassis on " scores " as much of it ... particulatly under the current captions of today... is mostly totally beyond the marchers control no matter how much the entire marching members of the Corps bust their tails. Marchers should enjoy the experience and control what they can control, and not fret things that are beyond their control. Thats not only a good lesson for Drum Corps, but a good lesson that is transferable from the experience in Drum Corps to real life it seems to me. Edited October 26, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) No because winning a title was never a priority for me. I joined a corps because as a Jr in HS I knew I was going to a Community College which sure didn't have a MB. So I wanted something to do where I could still play horn so all the time, effort and money in lessons didn't go to crap. Local start up corps was looking for members and when they merged with Westshoremen (who had been inactive) it was a great fit. Great fit as I enjoy the history of my hometown and was part of it being in the corps. And improving each year was an added bonus. Eh... did win the next to last American Legion title when the show was held during the National Convention so at least I did win A title. But my main priority at the time was my education in the more affordable Community College and PA State School.... I see my all my time in corps as part of a hobby or something to relax and blow (no pun intended) steam, even the years I was competing. All of that is fine and I commend you for doing what you desire; but you posed two rather poignant questions: 1) “How is one taught how to win?”; and 2) “You learn this better from a top corps than others?”. The answer to #1 is you are taught to win from those who ingrain you with the attitude of never accepting anything less from yourself than the desire, the work, the effort, with the proper ethics, 'to win'; and also teach you that while you are to be thankful for your accomplishments as you move forward you should never ever be completely satisfied until you ‘win’, and then attempt to win again, and agin. Thus you are taught that the process of attaining the win is the goal not just the win itself; that is how one is ‘taught’ to win. And the answer to #2 is Yes; you do learn this better from the top corps who have obtained the ring or those who do everything they can within the bounds of ethics to win the ring. While I am not a proponent of the G7 proposal, the attitude ‘to win’ is really what separates the top corps from all other corps. However it is not an elite group; that is where I balk at the G7 proposal. Because any corps, if they so choose, can take the journey to put together staff and performers with the desire and attitude ‘to win’ (and this was just manifested by Crown in their twenty-three year journey from 33rd to 1st ). Edited October 26, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfever Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 You will remember the people, places, and things long after you've forgotten the scores and placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) You will remember the people, places, and things long after you've forgotten the scores and placement. I just got through putting this to a test. I went up into the attic and dug out the group photo of my age-out year; and then I looked up the tour schedule and show scores online. I recognized a little over half of the members in the photo; I have interaction memories with less than half of the members; and I have kept in touch with a precious few of them. I have some specific memories of a few places on the tour schedule; mainly the places which were extraordinarily great or extraordinarily awful; but many of the places are a blur. I also admit that I remember very few of the scores during the middle portion of the schedule. I remember the free-days but not in much detail. I remember some of the funny moments and some of the harsh moments. But what I remember in very, very vivid detail, sort of like it occurred just last night, was the announcement, the feeling, and the emotion which ran through me at retreat when I found out that we were judged the best in the world for that one brief moment in time. Edited October 26, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 "Losers always whine about doing their best. Winners go home and ### the prom queen." - John Mason (Sean Connery) from the movie The Rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.