Carolina Crown: Play charts that nobody else could play.

[mingusmonk]

Sorry, it's early, I'm confused by what you mean?

If it's that we shouldn't look at the original source material to think about difficulty and only use the corps arrangements as the basis, I would still stand by what I am saying.

It doesn't mean anything in the DCP-take-a-stance-on-one-side-the-argument sense. It was just an observation. Your statement was a bit of a paradox. You state that you judge by how close it is to the original. Then you follow with looking for additions to the arrangement, which would make it less like the original.

A paradox can be a paradox, and still be true. I wasn't opposing your opinion here.

[perc2100]

tesmusic, on 15 Nov 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I would say that this statement does have some truth to it.

When I hear a corps is going to play a particularly difficult piece of music, such as Crown did this past year, I rate things on how close to the original score they are as far as the design goes, as well as of course adding certain music to the arrangement,

Am I the only one that couldn't get past this paradox?

Edited November 15, 2013 by perc2100

[tesmusic]

It doesn't mean anything in the DCP-take-a-stance-on-one-side-the-argument sense. It was just an observation. Your statement was a bit of a paradox. You state that you judge by how close it is to the original. Then you follow with looking for additions to the arrangement, which would make it less like the original.

A paradox can be a paradox, and still be true. I wasn't opposing your opinion here.

I see.

I am not sure it is a paradox as you say, however. By definition, as paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true.

My comment "When I hear a corps is going to play a particularly difficult piece of music, such as Crown did this past year, I rate things on how close to the original score they are as far as the design goes, as well as of course adding certain music to the arrangement, and Crown never disappoints."

So as my statement states I look at two things, the difficulty of the source material, as well as what is added to make it an arrangement.

Is it a paradox to look at multiple levels of the music to make a decision?

I would understand your point had I written it this way:

Statement 1-

When I hear a corps is going to play a particularly difficult piece of music, such as Crown did this past year, I rate things on how close to the original score they are as far as the design goes.

Statement 2-

When I think of a show as difficult the thing I look at is what is added to make the arrangement sound the way it does.

Not trying to start anything here, but my original statement was anything but a paradox, that is of course if we are going to use the true definition of a paradox..

Anyway, back to the thread-Crown's music as of late is more difficult than most others.

Edited November 15, 2013 by tesmusic

[mingusmonk]

I see.

I am not sure it is a paradox as you say, however. By definition, as paradox is a statement that apparently contradicts itself and yet might be true.

My comment "When I hear a corps is going to play a particularly difficult piece of music, such as Crown did this past year, I rate things on how close to the original score they are as far as the design goes, as well as of course adding certain music to the arrangement, and Crown never disappoints."

So as my statement states I look at two things, the difficulty of the source material, as well as what is added to make it an arrangement.

Is it a paradox to look at multiple levels of the music to make a decision?

I would understand your point had I written it this way:

Statement 1-

When I hear a corps is going to play a particularly difficult piece of music, such as Crown did this past year, I rate things on how close to the original score they are as far as the design goes.

Statement 2-

When I think of a show as difficult the thing I look at is what is added to make the arrangement sound the way it does.

Not trying to start anything here, but my original statement was anything but a paradox, that is of course if we are going to use the true definition of a paradox..

Anyway, back to the thread-Crown's music as of late is more difficult than most others.

Them's a lot of words to justify yourself to somebody that just conceded that he wasn't disagreeing with you.

Are you sure you're a "DCP Rookie"?

[tesmusic]

Them's a lot of words to justify yourself to somebody that just conceded that he wasn't disagreeing with you.

Are you sure you're a "DCP Rookie"?

Yup, just an english/music teacher that just started on here.

And I apologize if I seem long winded, it's what I teach my students when they want to make a point.

[Jeff Ream]

actucker: you seem to make the case that Crown programs their show around their brass line, but then you seem to take points off for the fact that they do spend an inordinate amount of summer practice on endurance. I don't think the two are exclusive and, if I were programming (writing and designing) for a particular line, I'd spend a bunch of time working on really showcasing them, too.

I'm a percussionist, too, and I agree with your second sentence but I think you understate the blaring attractiveness of Hannum's writing and state one of his greatest strengths as a weakness. Hannum's writing is exposed, which you describe as, paraphrasing, easier to grasp in the line. You know as I that an exposed style is different, but equally challenging to do well, as is densely-written notes with crazy meter patterns. Go watch the drum cam of Crown's show and do the same for Cadets.

Where the difference shines to my ear is the musicality of Hannum's writing. You said it, they programmed for brass, and you gotta agree that they told Hannum the same thing. That doesn't necessarily mean easier or less dense, that means programmed to highlight the brass. With the brass ripping runs multiple times in the show, a dense drum book would muddy the articulation and timing clarity that the brass line achieves. That's not programming for the brass. In this regard - musicality of the both lines together - Hannum excelled IMO, even if the proficiency of the line might have been disappointing. I'd hope you'd agree that the drum feature was technically demanding even if mostly in one meter. Further the sixteenth-triplets ripped by the hornline just before and after the drum feature were nicely mirrored by the Hannum solo as well. Again, to my ear, supporting the horns as a bridge that didn't cause me to reacquire the rhythmic patterns and metric modulations set up in the horns. The density of the drum feature was pretty high, if not Cadets high, IMO.

I credit the Cadets highest flams in history, and it fit their show to some ears. But that technical achievement did little to support their brass, even as dazzling as it was, which is why Hannum wasn't compelled to have his line try them.

We haven't heard Crown's tapes or read his comments, but I would suggest that Crown's low drum scores were based on technical proficiency, not based on Hannum's writing style.

You said it yourself: "Every drum corps focuses on the skills needed to perform their show with their technique program". Crown's technique program focused on what was necessary to play Hannum's book because Hannum's book was written to support their brass. That they came up a little short in goal isn't a reflection of Hannum's style of writing to support the brass. To my ear his writing perfectly supported the brass even if some may call the book easier to grasp.

I'm not a brass guy by training but I've NEVER heard another corps play six-trips up-tempo across the entire brass line for such long phrases and for so much of the show at alternating meters - and with such rhythmic clarity - as Crown did this year. There have been blasts of outstanding technics in many shows over the years, but nothing that I remember with the duration of Crown 2013.

I agree with Ream, get that drum score up with the consistency of the brass and Crown could dominate for it's own three-or-more-peat.

here's the thing G...the sheet is performance driven. You want the high book number, get the performance up, because if there are clarity issues, you can't credit the book no matter how musical it is.

where's hannums writing really received credit was upstairs.the "dirt" won't carry upstairs, especially in the echo Chamber with that brass line wailing and amps etc.

I have a former student going there this year. i expect no problems making the percussion team given training and experience elsewhere in DCI and WGI. Talent, IMHO isn't the issue. Part is design....if something refuses to work, than ###### suck up the ego and change it. if it isn't working...is it the people in front of the kids? if so, change it.

now your swipe at cadets...well dude, they ####### played their ##### off, as did SCV. Both books supported the program, and in fact, the upstairs numbers may have been lower for many design reasons of the brass or visual as opposed to the percussion.

Crowns show continues to grow on me, but really...they can't expect to have everything break down that way and luck out again. Drum guys are the one area in the activity where you still see a set of balls and not afraid to throw out spreads. The grass may not be greener if it's an issue again

[dans]

This discussion illustrates a certain arrogance that turns me off about Crown. Can't you Crown people just savor your victory without all the trash talking about how no other corps could possible do what you do. As a matter of fact, there were a couple corps at finals that performed what they were given better and cleaner than Crown. Crown is a great drum corps that has accomplished some great things. I would find it much easier to like them if they would lose some of the arrogance.

[Jeff Ream]

This discussion illustrates a certain arrogance that turns me off about Crown. Can't you Crown people just savor your victory without all the trash talking about how no other corps could possible do what you do. As a matter of fact, there were a couple corps at finals that performed what they were given better and cleaner than Crown. Crown is a great drum corps that has accomplished some great things. I would find it much easier to like them if they would lose some of the arrogance.

every team has some of that IMO. I know in here I gave Crown, Cadets and SCV props. I'm sure someone else will skewer me for it.

they are the new BD. Remember how every complained about them and their fans the last few years? well it's team Purple's turn now

[LMoss3336]

As someone who only uses the forums for show reviews and live scores, I felt the need to actually reply to this one.

I'm a brass alumni from a championship corps and I can say without any doubt whatsoever, that I could have effectively performed in any of the top 5 corps at that time. The talent levels in the top corps are for the most part dead on. If the Blue Devils were given the exact same music score and drill from Crown's show (guard and percussion books too), and given from January to August to clean it up for finals, they would certainly be able to effectively do so. Would it win? Who knows. Would the horn line be able to give you goosebumps and make you scream "holy sh%t that was a sick mellophone lick!" ? Absolutely...

Edited November 15, 2013 by LMoss3336

[Jeff Ream]

here's the thing G...the sheet is performance driven. You want the high book number, get the performance up, because if there are clarity issues, you can't credit the book no matter how musical it is.

where's hannums writing really received credit was upstairs.the "dirt" won't carry upstairs, especially in the echo Chamber with that brass line wailing and amps etc.

I have a former student going there this year. i expect no problems making the percussion team given training and experience elsewhere in DCI and WGI. Talent, IMHO isn't the issue. Part is design....if something refuses to work, than ###### suck up the ego and change it. if it isn't working...is it the people in front of the kids? if so, change it.

now your swipe at cadets...well dude, they ####### played their ##### off, as did SCV. Both books supported the program, and in fact, the upstairs numbers may have been lower for many design reasons of the brass or visual as opposed to the percussion.

Crowns show continues to grow on me, but really...they can't expect to have everything break down that way and luck out again. Drum guys are the one area in the activity where you still see a set of balls and not afraid to throw out spreads. The grass may not be greener if it's an issue again

one more thing Garfield...

While you seem to not be a fan of Cadets writing and how it worked with the total package...

Crowns writing wouldn't have worked with anyone else, for a reason that may offend...

in Cadets or SCV for example.....it was about all voices. Crown was brass 1st, the rest 2nd