BoyWonder1911 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 What bothers me is not so much the placements, but the scores. Back when DCI first started in 1972, corps were winning with 88-90 points. Now, 98 points is pretty much a requirement to have a shot to win. Yet, 12th place corps still score 85-87 points. Will there ever be a day when all 12 finalists score at least 90 points? Or is that something with the judging system in separate captions, that they have to have a certain amount of spread between corps? A spread of .1 points for each of the 8 captions between all 12 corps would result in a spread of 9.6 points from 1st to 12th. It almost seems like it could be a possibility that 12 corps can score 90, but it's never come close to happening. Is this a legitimate argument for "scores being arbitrary"? It sure seems like most corps improve on a year-to-year basis, or at least hold steady. And then I get to thinking "maybe the show design is being judged more than the performance.". And if that's true, that's not good for DCI, because the members should be the one earning points, not the staff members. This is why I support a more objective judging system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 The Cadevaliers are the odds on favorite to win every year. The Cadevaliers are the odds on favorite to win the next 35 years too. There has been over 200 Drum Corps that competed in DCI Drum Corps since its inception. Forget about any of them being the next " Carolina Crown " and coming up thru the ranks to win a DCI Title ( the ONLY Corps to have done so since Star of Indiana did over 20 years ago... and even Star is gone now too.) . The overwhelming vast majority of Corps that made the Championship quest and at one time finished in the top 6 in DCI are no longer even making the quest anymore. They are but a distant memory now, as they no longer even draw a breath. While placement is exceedingly important and should never, ever be discounted, if you make placement define who you are as a Corps, and a marcher in that Corps, there's a much much higher chance that your Corps will someday be joining all the dozens of others in the dustbin of Drum Corps history than topping the Cadevaliers on Finals Night in August some day in the future.. We shouldn't be lamenting the fact that the overwhelming vast majority of DCI Corps never get a wiff of placement in the top 3.. we should be applauding the very few that still remain that have not quit making that effort. THEY are the steadfast Champions of the what Drum Corps used to represent in its fundamental mission and spirit... NOT the Cadevaliers. Aren't the CadevaCrownaliers still in the hunt each year? Did I miss something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) There is a certain baseball team that frustrates me, On the subject of Major League Baseball ( recognizing the inherent differences is Pro and Amateur DCI ) we fans would probably do cartwheels to have the exciting volatility of placement position change from year to year that MLB has. If we consider being in the World Series playoffs as a barometer of a year's placement success, where 2 teams fight it out for the title in the end ( similar to 2 " teams " in DCI coming out of the Semi's to fight it out at Finals ), then we can readily see how MLB is chock full of more parity than DCI ( despite MLB having no salary cap, and such wide diversity in payrolls ). MLB in the last 15 years ( since 1999 ) has had 16 different teams finishing up 1 and 2, and doing battle for the Title in the World Series. This means that in these 15 years, over half of all the teams in MLB have made it at least one year to the #1, and #2 placement positions that year to legitimately contend for the title of Champion. How does this compare with the numbers of different " teams " in DCI in the last 15 years that have made it to the #1, and #2 placement position to fight it out for the title ? Don't ask. You don't want to know. There is no parity in DCI... insofar as a comparison with MLB's parity is concerned anyway. There is only royalty in DCI. Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I don't know who the " aliers " are. I make mention of "The Cadevaliers". They are the rulers of the DCI Kingdom, and own the land, the peasants, etc in it. Not ALL 3 of the Cadets, 'Devils, Cavaliers are going to sit on the royal throne each year. But one of them will ( well, more than 8 out of 10 times anyway ). Thus, in the last 15 years ( since 1999 ) The Cadevaliers have won 13 of the 15 DCI Titles. Its a good bet that the Cadevaliers family royalty will rule the DCI Kingdom once again here in 2014 too when the dust settles too. But.. who knows... we'll find out soon enough, if I'm right. I'm pretty sure that Kevin Smith doesn't agree with your vision of the future, and it's a dam-good thing he didn't think like you 25 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Aren't the CadevaCrownaliers still in the hunt each year? Did I miss something? Yes, Crown has one title only and hasn't been around long enough to see if they replace The Cadevaliers. Some say Crown "reminds them of the Star of Indiana". One naturally assumes that they are not referring to the fact in this association with Star that Star rose up the ranks quickly, won 2 titles than disappeared almost as quickly as they arrived. We assume they mean that " they rose up methodically, and won themselves at title", and not what then transpired quickly after they reached their title . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoyWonder1911 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) You can't compare baseball to drum corps...it's not even in the same realm of competition. Drum corps come out and do the same show night after night. Baseball players have a different pitcher every night, there are a ton of variables involved. Trying to hit a baseball coming at you at 95 mph, and catching one 300 feet away... I don't even know why I have to explain it. There is no comparison. I guess I would go as far to say that luck has more to do with baseball than skill. Lucky that the pitcher left a hanging breaking ball, just high enough to knock it out of the park, and win the game. By the end of a season, the worst team will have won 38-40% of their games and the best winning 58-60% of their games. The best hitters hit only 36% of their non-walk plate appearances for a base-hit or more. The best pitchers give up 2-2.5 runs for every 9 innings they pitch. Also they give up at least 1 walk or hit per inning pitched. Even the best teams in MLB lost 40% of their games. Edited June 26, 2014 by BoyWonder1911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 You can't compare baseball to drum corps...it's not even in the same realm of competition. Drum corps come out and do the same show night after night. Baseball players have a different pitcher every night, there are a ton of variables involved. Trying to hit a baseball coming at you at 95 mph, and catching one 300 feet away... I don't even know why I have to explain it. There is no comparison. I guess I would go as far to say that luck has more to do with baseball than skill. Lucky that the pitcher left a hanging breaking ball, just high enough to knock it out of the park, and win the game. By the end of a season, the worst team will have won 38-40% of their games and the best winning 58-60% of their games. Even the best teams in MLB lost 40% of their games. Sigh. I guess analogy is too complex a concept to use around here. There is a distinction separating analogy from comparison. I was attempting the former, not the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I'm pretty sure that Kevin Smith doesn't agree with your vision of the future, and it's a dam-good thing he didn't think like you 25 years ago. " 25 years ago " is just that.. "25 years ago "... 25 years ago we were only in the very beginnings of the formation of The Cadevaliers, and the DCI environment was WAY different back then . My guess, 25 years ago, Kevin Smith would be reaching for his trusty musket as well if 7 Corps tried to implement a permanent slotting system within the World Class Division on Kevin Smith and the others. So don't tell me what Kevin Smith would be thinking " 25 years ago " when the environment of then in DCI to today in DCI is a wholly different situational dynamic at play. Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) I had to eat some serious crow one night when I fussed at them for losing the Apple TV remote, only to realize later on that it was in my own pocket. Truth be told, I lose the remote probably as much as, if not more so, than my kids. There are a few times however when I wished I could have lost my kids for a bit instead of my remote. I keed, I keed.. its a joke.....I Iuv them &, they me..... so don't any of you without kids decide to call Human Services, Child Welfare Div. on me... haha ! ) Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 What bothers me is not so much the placements, but the scores. Back when DCI first started in 1972, corps were winning with 88-90 points. Now, 98 points is pretty much a requirement to have a shot to win. Yet, 12th place corps still score 85-87 points. Will there ever be a day when all 12 finalists score at least 90 points? Or is that something with the judging system in separate captions, that they have to have a certain amount of spread between corps? A spread of .1 points for each of the 8 captions between all 12 corps would result in a spread of 9.6 points from 1st to 12th. It almost seems like it could be a possibility that 12 corps can score 90, but it's never come close to happening. Is this a legitimate argument for "scores being arbitrary"? It sure seems like most corps improve on a year-to-year basis, or at least hold steady. And then I get to thinking "maybe the show design is being judged more than the performance.". And if that's true, that's not good for DCI, because the members should be the one earning points, not the staff members. This is why I support a more objective judging system. There is no such thing.There never has been. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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