There's a certain corps that frustrates me

[c mor]

Subjective judging...all corps wear the same uniform, random order of appearance, names are not announced. That could work...but of course will never in 14 life times ever happen.

OR

Train a new crop of judges from over seas who don't know diddley about any of the stuff we know about and have them give it a whirl.

They'd have to perform the exact same show. Actually, to be truly objective, each corps would have to perform the exact same show, but the winner would be determined by the corps that could perform it the fastest! The stopwatch is the judge.

[BRASSO]

For me the resemblance doesn't come from how they got there, but the power in the the horn line and a familiar sound they both share(d).

While true, a great brass line does not by itself, make for a DCI Champion. Frankly I see little resemblance between Crown and Star of Indiana, other than the fact both had fine brass lines. I see far more dissimilarities between Star and Crown than similarities between the two. BD has more far similarities with Star of Indiana in my view than does Crown with Star. Star was controversial in its offerings near the end, similar to BD of late. I have never found Crown to be as controversial in its shows as BD and Star together have been viewed. I don't recall Crown ever being booed for example ( as BD and Star have been on a few occasions )But... lets not get sidetracked and go off on a subject discussion the OP here probably does not intend for us to discuss at any length. So.... back to our regularly scheduled programming.......

Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO

[BoyWonder1911]

While true, a great brass line does not by itself, make for a DCI Champion. Frankly I see little resemblance between Crown and Star of Indiana, other than the fact both had fine brass lines. I see far more dissimilarities between Star and Crown than similarities between the two. BD has more far similarities with Star of Indiana in my view than does Crown with Star. Star was controversial in its offerings near the end, similar to BD of late. I have never found Crown to be as controversial in its shows as BD and Star together have been viewed. I don't recall Crown ever being booed for example ( as BD and Star have been on a few occasions )But... lets not get sidetracked and go off on a subject discussion the OP here probably does not intend for us to discuss at any length. So.... back to our regularly scheduled programming.......

I would go as far as to say that Crown's show this year is controversial...in drill design, the car mufflers, frisbees, trampolines, and overall how the theme is portrayed.

Note that I'm not making an opinion either way as to if I personally happen to like it or not, because my entertainment is motivated more by quality of performance than what they're actually performing.

I'm just saying that the new things they are doing, new things are almost always controversial.

It will be interesting to see where these judges "subjectively" rank Crown by the end of this season.

So far their brass seems on top of things like last season. They're playing and moving cleanly...but then again, "cleanliness" is just a subjective opinion, right?

[jwillis35]

I'm frustrated by my frustration. Kind of wish my corps would win every year. Why is that so hard?

[BRASSO]

I would go as far as to say that Crown's show this year is controversial...in drill design, the car mufflers, frisbees, trampolines, and overall how the theme is portrayed.

Note that I'm not making an opinion either way as to if I personally happen to like it or not, because my entertainment is motivated more by quality of performance than what they're actually performing.

I'm just saying that the new things they are doing, new things are almost always controversial.

It will be interesting to see where these judges "subjectively" rank Crown by the end of this season.

So far their brass seems on top of things like last season. They're playing and moving cleanly...but then again, "cleanliness" is just a subjective opinion, right?

Crown's shows are nowhere near as controversial as BD's have been of late. My definition of a Corps shows as being " controversial", is when the show meets with a lot of golf claps in the end ( as BD's recent shows have done ) or worse, with notable and quite audible booing when their scores were announced ( again, something that BD has sustained in the recent past.). Crown has received neither golf claps, nor booing from fans when their scores were higher than fans wanted after watching and listening to their show. So your definition of " controversial " shows is clearly quite different than my definition of " a controversial shows "( which is cool and all, and no problem at all for either one of us. )

As for BD, I'm actually encouraged by the new direction that BD has apparently taken with this season's show. Melody and harmony have returned.. there are longer sustained musical passages, rather than their recent scatter like playing of short snippets of things then abrupt interruptions, with change up in tempos the norm. BD seemingly has been meeting with better early season reactions too, and that must please and motivate their current performers. In my view, there is nothing particularly enobling nor endearing for a perfomer to perform high art that is met with indifference, apathy, frustration, anger, confusion, etc and with an overall sense of dissatisfaction from many in the audience to one's offerings, no matter how splendidly executed in its delivery in the performance.

Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO

[BoyWonder1911]

Crown's shows are nowhere near as controversial as BD's have been of late. My definition of a Corps shows as being " controversial", is when the show meets with a lot of golf claps in the end ( as BD's recent shows have done ) or worse, with notable and quite audible booing when their scores were announced ( again, something that BD has sustained in the recent past.). Crown has received neither golf claps, nor booing from fans when their scores were higher than fans wanted after watching and listening to their show. So your definition of " controversial " shows is clearly quite different than my definition of " a controversial shows "( which is cool and all, and no problem at all for either one of us. )

As for BD, I'm actually encouraged by the new direction that BD has apparently taken with this season's show. Melody and harmony have returned.. there are longer sustained musical passages, rather than their recent scatter like playing of short snippets of things then abrupt interruptions, with change up in tempos the norm. BD seemingly has been meeting with better early season reactions too, and that must please and motivate their current performers. In my view, there is nothing particularly enobling nor endearing for a perfomer to perform high art that is met with indifference, apathy, frustration, anger, confusion, etc and with an overall sense of dissatisfaction from many in the audience to one's offerings, no matter how splendidly executed in its delivery in the performance.

I guess my reply to that would be the following...

What do you think about the judging of these Blue Devils' shows recently? Since 2010? A big part of the audience did not really enjoy these shows, yet they still scored high.

Shouldn't the judges have, at least in some sort of proportion, expressed a "subjective" response, being communicated in their scorings? But then you say they performed at a high level. So there has to be some objectivity in scoring, if shows that are so completely different, like BD of last year, still received a high score?

Maybe I'm confusing "controversial" with "innovative" or "different". The use of voicing in Crown's show last year was certainly innovative...I would almost say controversial.

The use of trampolines, car mufflers, frisbees, has indeed invoked emotional responses in myself, emotions that include apathy, indifference, dissatisfaction, etc. Not anger or hostility, as I still mostly enjoy the show, but the over-the-topness I'm sure has probably invoked similar emotions in many fans other than myself.

The use of the mirrors in the BD 2010, the white poles in their show last year, invoked the same responses as well.

I think the apathy with Blue Devils has more to do with their drill design not being engaging than their use of music. Their musical programs have always been top-notch.

With Crown, not so much with their drill, but the use of extra-peripherals.

With Star 1993, it was the minimalist music.

Anyways, just things to think about.

[coltshannan]

Why can't DCI adopt sports division play where at the end of the season the team with the worst record during the regular season can with the help of division playoff win the world series against a team like BD. Playoffs means the colts can win with perseverance and less judgmental judging and with crowd appeal counts as 75% everyone and anyone can win and you'll get larger and money producing crowds. So to you naysayers, and corps has way too many including me, get off your B flat and C sharp.

[BRASSO]

.

I think the apathy with Blue Devils has more to do with their drill design not being engaging than their use of music. Their musical programs have always been top-notch.

Something can be " top notch " in its execution, but if fails to deliver a positive response to that, it can hardly be deemed a success with audiences, despite its scoring success with DCI judges. Placement and scoring success should not be confused with audience success. They are two different things. Judges have their designated yardsticks for what consitutes a " winner". Audiences have a much different criteria for their determination as to what shows were" a winner " with them. I defer to the judges what is in their domain as to what they like. I don't go there. Its not in my domain. I defer to myself what I like. What I like is in my domain. The judges can't go there. As such, we seem to get along. I don't get worked up on judges scores and placements. They don't care what I think of the scores and placements, and I don't care I they don't particularly care for the shows that I like. Neither influences the other in this regard.

[Tad_MMA]

Takes too long to set up quotes, etc., so random thoughts:

Barber and Bartok ("Star 1993...minimalist...") are NOT minimalist composers. They're very non-linear when it comes to melody and harmony. It's not what the masses would deem "comfortable" music.

"Why can't 12th place score 90..." Well, let's look mathematically. Each judge works with 2 ten-point subcaptions. To arrive at 90, the average of the 8 judges would be 9.0 + 9.0 = 18.0. Given that there are 11 corps to go, "wiggle room" becomes more limited. Granted, ties are not forbidden but should be avoided both in the subcaption and the total number from the judge. That hints at mismanagement and indecision. But I've heard judges defend this practice, as well. Also, "Box 5" which begins at 9.1 (I'm 99.15% sure on this. Ahem.). Should the corps that barely squeaked by corps 13-16 to get into finals be awarded the top scoring tier?

Check out the 1975 Finals recap. GE was 30 points from 3 10-point judges (horns, drums, visual). SEVEN 10's were awarded through 3 corps. It's called the "Philadelphia Ten-fest of Indecision."

In 1985, GE Visual was a basic "indecision," as well. Suncoast Sound did a great show and really compelled and involved the audience. However, they were slotted in 6th place from semis and were the 7th corps to compete. Awarded 14.4 (max 15 then), there wasn't much room for the remaining 5 corps. So, they were given (Cavies-->Madison-->BD-->SCV-->Cadets) 14.6-->14.7-->14.8-->14.9-->15.0. No way were those top 5 that close in design, performance and showmanship. In a "perfect" world (and IMOP), there would have been AT LEAST 1.5 points between Garfield and Madison in that caption. Go and find me a better drill than Garfield 1985. GO! So the Scouts, who were contenders for 10 minutes that year, would have scored 93+ rather than 95.0. The point of that blather: should Suncoast have been "docked" because of the possibility (probability...this panel saw these corps all year) that any/all of the following 5 would be better? Or do we reward them and hope that it doesn't get all bunched up (like it did)?

btw, 1983 saw the largest difference in scoring between 1st and 12th. The year before, BD hit 95.25 (highest score ever w/ ticks)---that was the only year before the 1984 all-buildup system that #12 scored above 80.

When the Cavies broke 99, #11 and #12 were under 85. When the Cadets equaled 99.15, Spirit was over 86 (still the highest #12 score). Again, do we reward "lesser" achievement to reign in the Terror at the Top?

[HockeyDad]

Define how you tell if a curve is clean or not?

What is a wrong note? Sloppy cutof? The judge would make subjective decisions as to if a particular form is clean or not...if a cutoff was sloppy...and if so, how sloppy, etc. Any time you have humans evaluating 'something' and then marking it as an error or not that person is making a subjective evaluation.

Then what's the point of judging?