There's a certain corps that frustrates me

[BoyWonder1911]

Sure there is! A clean curve or line or box is just that. One cannot be subjective about whether or not a form / set is clean. Same thing with performance. A wrong note is a wrong note. A dropped rifle is a dropped rifle. Intonation problems are intonation problems. And then it gets even more nuanced than that. Did that whole not they just played cut off together? Or was it a sloppy cut off? Is someone out of step? Are the flags together and in sync during this point of the show? Are the percussionists playing cleanly? And then you get to "How difficult is their show? That brass run is difficult, but is it clean? How clean?"

All of those are objective.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that 60% of the score is absolutely objective-based.

Of course GE is subjective, more or less, but comprises 40% of the score. Why? Why make a mostly subjective part of scoring such a huge part of the score?

[BRASSO]

You can't compare baseball to drum corps...i

Well, some people ( not you ) do seem conflicted at the very least on this. On the one hand quite a few do like to compare DCI competition and what these " athletes " do to an " amateur competitive sport ". But then when you actually begin to bring up the similarities and dissimilarities to amateur competitive " sport " they want to then cut off debate, and tell us that DCI is " not like baseball"... or " football ", or " any other of these sports " So there are some that seem confused and / and or conflicted it would seem to me on this.

Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

Sure there is! A clean curve or line or box is just that. One cannot be subjective about whether or not a form / set is clean. Same thing with performance. A wrong note is a wrong note. A dropped rifle is a dropped rifle. Intonation problems are intonation problems. And then it gets even more nuanced than that. Did that whole not they just played cut off together? Or was it a sloppy cut off? Is someone out of step? Are the flags together and in sync during this point of the show? Are the percussionists playing cleanly? And then you get to "How difficult is their show? That brass run is difficult, but is it clean? How clean?"

All of those are objective.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that 60% of the score is absolutely objective-based.

Of course GE is subjective, more or less, but comprises 40% of the score. Why? Why make a mostly subjective part of scoring such a huge part of the score?

Define how you tell if a curve is clean or not?

What is a wrong note? Sloppy cutof? The judge would make subjective decisions as to if a particular form is clean or not...if a cutoff was sloppy...and if so, how sloppy, etc. Any time you have humans evaluating 'something' and then marking it as an error or not that person is making a subjective evaluation.

[actucker]

Sure there is! A clean curve or line or box is just that. One cannot be subjective about whether or not a form / set is clean. Same thing with performance. A wrong note is a wrong note. A dropped rifle is a dropped rifle. Intonation problems are intonation problems. And then it gets even more nuanced than that. Did that whole not they just played cut off together? Or was it a sloppy cut off? Is someone out of step? Are the flags together and in sync during this point of the show? Are the percussionists playing cleanly? And then you get to "How difficult is their show? That brass run is difficult, but is it clean? How clean?"

All of those are objective.

In fact, I would go as far as saying that 60% of the score is absolutely objective-based.

Of course GE is subjective, more or less, but comprises 40% of the score. Why? Why make a mostly subjective part of scoring such a huge part of the score?

Objective, by definition, removes any possibility for human opinion. Even clean vs not clean is subject to opinion. Were the Mellophones supposed to be the lead voice there, or the trumpets? What is the proper balance for the music that was written. What is the correct interpretation of that flam spacing. Is that curve supposed to have wider intervals there than farther down the line? Do you have the score? Are you sure that flat 9 is a wrong note, or was it the arrangers design choice? Is that flag feature a ripple or a unison idea. This is why there are words like "clarity" and "uniformity" on the sheets. Its an acknowledgment that the judges will have to make some calls based on their opinion at the moment. The only way to be completely objective is for all of the corps to play the same arrangements, with the same equipment, and the same drill, and for each judge to have a copy of each of those things ahead of time. Even then, it would require some machinery for some of the finer points of execution.

This is why sports have instant replay. Most things in sports are inherently more objective than a performance art like drum corps. Either the ball is fair our foul. There's only one right answer. Even in that situation, we don't trust human beings to get the right answer every time. Therefore, we have machines to back us up, making challenges to the calls possible. Very few things in drum corps are that black and white. Clean vs. not clean. What about shades of gray? Was this group cleaner than the other? Was that cutoff more bad than the other? Can you really make a completely objective call on those things in the moment on one read?

The real question is, is it more important that the judging system find a way to be objective, or is it more important that anyone actually want to see any of the shows. Personally, I'm not buying a ticket to go to a show where I have to watch the same show 8 or 9 times in a row.

There is no such thing as objective judging in performance art.

[BRASSO]

In fact, I would go as far as saying that 60% of the score is absolutely objective-based.

I would go as far as to say that 0 % of the judging... none of it... despite its good intentions.... is " objective-based ".

DCI judges are presented a funadamentally impossible task as far as " objectivity " is concerned. They are asked to compare and contrast wholly disparate, and completely dissimilar things. No can do. Its impossible right off the bat from an " objective- based " standpoint. Thus, it is ALL subjective. None of it, is " objective based ". I don't even think you'll find a solitary current DCI judge that believes that what they do has ANY element of true objectivity in it at all either. Its ALL purely subjective an enterprise. The only thing that can be objectively determined in a Drum Corps competition show it seems to me, is an objective based comparison of how long their shows were in competition that particular competition. We have timers for that, and the times can be objectively compared, assuming the clock worked, and the start and finish time were recorded as prescribed. But, unless there was an undertime or an overtime issue,even thIs verifiable, "objective-based", comparison is irrelevant to the scores given to the competitors in competition that event.

Edited June 26, 2014 by BRASSO

[JKT90]

Subjective judging...all corps wear the same uniform, random order of appearance, names are not announced. That could work...but of course will never in 14 life times ever happen.

OR

Train a new crop of judges from over seas who don't know diddley about any of the stuff we know about and have them give it a whirl.

[Jeff Ream]

I've said elsewhere: The story in DCI is that the floor is rising. The 11-15 range is objectively stronger now -- design, marching, execution, teaching -- than ever. There is more pressure from below than ever. This is mostly a good thing -- the overall product is better from top to bottom. DCI is like a volcano: pressure from the bottom until something blows.

It's good, except there is no pressure valve, no orderly mechanism to bring down the mighty and raise the lowly, as there is in other competitive pursuits. There is no NFL-style draft to infuse the worst teams with the best talent. There is no salary cap to put the reins on the richest teams. In DCI, the point is not to win championships. The point is to turn young people into stellar adults through the pursuit of performance excellence. In the NFL, owners have a direct interest in the financial health of the NFL overall, thus they have an interest in a balanced league with lots of competitive movement. In other words, they understand they will make more money in the long run if their team doesn't win every Super Bowl.

Not the case in DCI. Each corps is an island, tied together only by the joint ambition to give kids a world-class experience and a need to create a venue for them to do it. The competitive venue -- the scores -- is a tool toward that end, the measure of that excellence, at least comparatively (even in a year when the shows are lousy and the kids learn nothing, someone will win).

For the most part, the only force that can bring down the top corps comes from within those top corps themselves. They get into financial trouble. Or they make bad staff moves. Or they do something that turns off the kids, who go elsewhere. They do it to themselves. They create an opening for someone below. If they can avoid those pitfalls, their historical competitive record gives them a huge head start on everyone else each season.

Every once in a great while -- a very, very great while -- a corps pushes up from below and simply out-muscles those above. They blow the top off the volcano. Is Crown that example? Is Bluecoats another in the making? Maybe. But it takes so long that the marching members who helped begin the surge can't stick around long enough to enjoy the rewards years -- and years -- later. Real volcanoes erupt more frequently.

This is not a healthy state of being, IMO. The lava churns and flows underneath, and cools and solidifies up top. This year, as in others, there will be corps, especially in the 11-15 range, who will be objectively, demonstrably better in all phases of the activity than they were last year -- and yet will drop in placement relative to other corps. This happens all the time elsewhere: The Dodgers have their best team in years, and will finish 2014 with a better record than 2013, yet still may lose out to the Giants in their division. That's baseball. Wait 'til next year.

And that's okay, as long as the Dodgers have a reasonable shot next year. You can't say that in DCI. The system reinforces immobility. And in the long run, that is a cancer.

yes and no.

until the early 2000's Madison was an annual fixture in the top 7. They haven't been there much since. Cavies were top 4 material most years, but have fallen the last 2. Crossmen were an annual finalist til 2004. been in what once since?

I said it elsewhere...cry about money, slotting etc....the corps at the top have a plan, and stick to it. They retain their team, and make it environment kids want to be in. You build those things, kids will stay. I had high hopes for Blue Stars as they rose from A60/D3/Open Class to World Class to 8th place, but they kind of stuttered. why? lots of staff changes.

it took Crown from the ashes of the awful 2002 show to get where they are. Just to make top 4 it took them 6 years. Since then, most staff changes have been positives. You can't say that for many other corps below those top few.

if you build a team, have a plan, and make it that kids want to come there, you'll do well. You can't guarantee victories because the competition at the top is like never before. But you can surely insert yourself into the conversation.

the problem is few of these corps do any of that

[JKT90]

Yes, Crown has one title only and hasn't been around long enough to see if they replace The Cadevaliers. Some say Crown "reminds them of the Star of Indiana". One naturally assumes that they are not referring to the fact in this association with Star that Star rose up the ranks quickly, won 2 titles than disappeared almost as quickly as they arrived. We assume they mean that " they rose up methodically, and won themselves at title", and not what then transpired quickly after they reached their title .

For me the resemblance doesn't come from how they got there, but the power in the the horn line and a familiar sound they both share(d).

[c mor]

Almost every year, and this one so far especially. I hold out hope they will be more competitive but am usually disappointed...I mean just me venting here, but figure it out and do something about it. I'm sorry, but for me huddling in the 11th to 14th range just isn't acceptable...other corps have done it, so no excuses.

Ok, I feel better...not really.

Did they have some organizational changes this off-season?

[BariBone]

Great points . The top corps stay that way because they have figured out how best to manage and retain world class staff and give these kids the best experience possible. Dci is equipping volunteers at shows with mini iPads to survey fans as they walk in the stadium. I'd love to see a survey as to what drives members to go where they go.