Can Bluecoats win gold?

[perc2100]

Seems like a lot of DCPers are watching shows with a stop watch in hand

This is odd, strange behavior

I actually totally agree with you, cowtown. I personally only do that type of thing if I'm intentionally trying to find fault in something, though it isn't unheard of to do this type of stuff with art. There's always a lot of talk at Oscar time if a supporting actor wins with a small amount of screen time (like Judy Dench), or if a supporting actor is really a lead.

I agree it is strange, but critics gonna critique...

[DrumManTx]

I read your posts on The Cadets topic, and then I read this. Pretty obvious who you're rooting for and who you don't want to overtake them. Which is cool, but it makes it kind of hard to take this completely seriously. To be fair, I think it's going to be hard to take down The Cadets, possible, yes, but it's going to be tough. Blue Devils? I dunno, we'll see, I think they're unreachable at this point but that could change, there's still 3 weeks left after all.

So, devil's advocacy over. How am I wrong?

I'm not going to say wrong as much as disagree or think some of your points are exaggerated in the following points:

As I read it, there's not quite enough content and demand to pull it off.

We'll see, but if that was the case they'd be peaking and their content numbers would be very close or matching their achievement numbers and would have far less of a discrepancy in their content versus achievement in scoring, they're actually right with The Cadets and Blue Devils in that respect, though Vanguard according to San Antonio has the most room to grow with the current state of their show in the top 5. In comparison with the rest of the top 5, here's the difference in that category in San Antonio:

Santa Clara Vanguard + 1.8 in favor of content

Blue Devils + 1.6 in favor of content

The Cadets + 1.5 in favor of content

Bluecoats + 1.5 in favor of content

Carolina Crown + .8 in favor of content.

So, with the current state of their show they have as much room to grow as the current top 2, but not as much as Santa Clara, so watch out there.

The consequence - the brass book in general doesn't have the content that I've seen in past gold medal shows.

When I listen to the past few winners, yes I agree. But going back to pre 2009, I think easier books have been in gold medal shows. I use the term easy loosely, that's of course in comparison to Carolina Crown last year and this year, Blue Devils, ect. but sometimes is being difficult for the sake of being difficult worthless? Crown has a bunch of notes this year and are winning brass, but is it really that effective? Not according to their scores. Also, the only shows that have won brass since Championships and also won the title? 2013 and 2010. Theirs isn't as difficult as Blue Devils or Crowns, but it has demand and if they get it clean enough, they'll be fine.

They've taken many pages out of Cavies' brass and drill book - minimal playing and marching simultaneously. Hard passages are standstill, or sitting/leaning on the props. I timed nearly 5 minutes of the show that the entire horn line was not playing (I'm not including the couple brass features with only one-third of them playing, like the brass feature with quick runs when they were leaning or sitting on the props). Or one half of the horn line will play standing still, and the others run into the new set. I call that sleight-of-hand. Others call it "staging".

And they won in 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, and medealed in 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2008 with that formula, so it obviously works. And to be fair, that's getting a little nit picky. I'll go back tonight and time it just to make sure you're not exaggerating here. I can think of another group that does this and competes very well.

I don't hear demand in general from the brass book. Reminds me of some Cavies shows that were all about the visual, and the music was minimal, and what music was there, was hardly very challenging.

First of all, you're kinda repeating yourself here. Secondly, I hear all the time from Blue Devils and Cadets homers when someone calls out something as being easy that it's actually really hard, they're just doing it so well that they're making it look really easy and effortless, same can't apply to the Cavaliers and Bluecoats?

The percussion book is more demanding, I concede. And they have some of their most difficult stuff while moving pretty fast, and doing body movement. They do have enough here to take the drum trophy.

Glad to see we agree on 1 thing.

In general, this show is about props and the 'tilt' concept, rather than music or drill.

I like to be polite, but are you ####### serious? You're telling me, that there's nothing, at all, in the music and drill that hints to the concept? Yes, the props and tarp certainly push it over the top, but there's all sorts of stuff going other than the super effective props and tarps. There's not ONE single straight horizontal across block form in this show, which a few other shows are chock full of. There's linear forms, yes, but more often than not the linear forms are skewed and tilted all over the place, which are harder to dress than a straight linear or block form. And they chose this music first, and they explained why they picked the theme secondary. All these modern composers have traditional ideas that they tilt and skew into something more modern.

I see more content and demand - even, surprisingly simultaneous marching/playing demand a for a few features - from BD, Crown and Cadets.

Yes, there's quite a bit of body movement, but if you're saying there's not enough difficulty in the visual and drum book, you're wrong. You're acting like it's easy, and it's not. As difficult as what some of the others are doing? Maybe not. But there's a fine line between difficulty and achievability, and I think Bluecoats are riding it NICELY. People keep pointing out that there's still quite a few visual issues, yet their show is easy and peaking? Talk about a contradiction. Too much body movement and lugging around props to different sets? Talk to Carolina Crown, Santa Clara Vanguard, and ESPECIALLY Blue Devils about that. At least when Bluecoats are moving around props they are uniform in how they do it, BD just kinda lazily and casually pushes stuff around. You say that their show isn't difficult, but the numbers disagree with you.

As much as I'd like to see a first-time champion this year, I'm skeptical that there is enough 'there' there in Tilt to beat the others in the top 4.

They've already beat two of them and have been riding around a point behind the Cadets for the past few days, we'll see if that continues, but it's certainly not an impossible gap to close.

Edited July 22, 2014 by DrumManTx

[perc2100]

Hilarious troll thread for BD/Cadets supporters.

also hilarious Bluecoat apologist troll thread (since your literally trolling now).

But BD supporters are just stating facts, really: Bluecoats haven't beaten BD yet this season, and haven't come that close to them yet either.

[Jast45]

I am always excited to read about Bluecoats. Amazing that this thread is here--last year the thread about Bluecoats was why they did not have that much of a following and why few talked about them--now there are three threads going on and on. I am a big supporter and fan of the Bluecoats and wish them the best--regardless of placement--they have people talking about them--and TILT will definitely be on a lot of people's lists of favortite shows. Go BLOOO

[perc2100]

Good shows win. Not the most difficult. Crown's show last year wasn't arguably the MOST difficult, PR 1996 comes to mind as well... many of the cool Cavies shows from the early 2000s weren't arguably the MOST difficult...

The truth is that a show does need to have a championship level of rigor, and I would say that each year all contending shows do, and must... including this Coats program.

The issue of a championship title rests in the collective read of the show. A caption will be won by appropriate difficulty AND integration as a PART of the show (not one OR the other).

The practice of counting minutes of rest and balance of featured sections is a completely fruitless undertaking. You have to look at what a group IS doing to come up with an evaluation.

Remember that a lack of evidence is evidence of nothing. Appealing to a lack of one thing when there is something else worthy of evaluation is fallacious.

They could win gold... if it all connects with the judges on finals night. So could several other corps.

Great reminder of what judges are REALLY looking for. I agree that Bluecoats do have a great show, and right now it's in the hands of the techs to clean the snot out of it, and the members to perform it perfectly!

[BozzlyB]

also hilarious Bluecoat apologist troll thread (since your literally trolling now).

But BD supporters are just stating facts, really: Bluecoats haven't beaten BD yet this season, and haven't come that close to them yet either.

I really don't think Bluecoats require any apologies this year.

Edited July 22, 2014 by BozzlyB

[Pete Freedman]

Maybe the OP's perception that the demand isn't there comes from the overwhelming visuals; so it's not that the demand isn't there, it's just harder to notice because of the dramatic visual content. The judges see through it of course, but some the audience is distracted by the big bold shapes and colors (in Tilt and other modern shows) and so they give the corps less credit for brass and percussion.

Maybe?

[Fred Windish]

Take a breath. Have we had this type of competitive TENSION in the last decade, or two? Not to me.

[THeShadeOfNight]

also hilarious Bluecoat apologist troll thread (since your literally trolling now).

But BD supporters are just stating facts, really: Bluecoats haven't beaten BD yet this season, and haven't come that close to them yet either.

There was a show where Bloo beat BD in a few captions. So, in some captions, Bloo has "beat BD" this season. If you were to say Bloo has not beaten BD's overall score this season I would agree. Coming close is incredibly subjective, as most corps would consider being 1.8 away pretty close.

[Fan of the Arts]

With a few DCP members predicting the Bluecoats make a huge surge and take gold this year, and with me enjoying that kind of talk for the first time, I've taken a bit of time to study the show again.

All those who are fans of the show (and one poster here who's on the board of the corps), help me understand the show a bit.

I'm going to play devils advocate here (and I don't mean I'm advocating for the Devils either). I'm a longtime fan of Bloo, as I had a number of friends from my high school and undergrad days who'd drive down from Cleveland to Canton every week to build the corps into a perennial top-12 group. In fact, I first heard about DCI because of Bloo when I was in middle school in the early 80s, and they were recruiting kids entering high school as they were building the corps.

My question here is - do they have enough to win gold? I'm comparing them against past gold medal winners' shows.

As I read it, there's not quite enough content and demand to pull it off.

They've taken many pages out of Cavies' brass and drill book - minimal playing and marching simultaneously. Hard passages are standstill, or sitting/leaning on the props. I timed nearly 5 minutes of the show that the entire horn line was not playing (I'm not including the couple brass features with only one-third of them playing, like the brass feature with quick runs when they were leaning or sitting on the props). Or one half of the horn line will play standing still, and the others run into the new set. I call that sleight-of-hand. Others call it "staging".

The consequence - the brass book in general doesn't have the content that I've seen in past gold medal shows.

I see lots and lots of body movement, maybe more than Crown usually has, but it is demanding? Doubtful. Leaning right and left isn't as hard as marching and playing, not to speak of doing so at a high tempo (as we've seen from many past champions).

The big WOW moment isn't particularly difficult for the corps. They play three chords and do a bit of slow body movement, mostly moving when they're not playing. Very cool, but doesn't take much skill. And again, we have the final 30 seconds of the show without anyone playing, just like we have for the first 30 seconds of the show. Body movement and running into position, or manipulating props.

I don't hear demand in general from the brass book. Reminds me of some Cavies shows that were all about the visual, and the music was minimal, and what music was there, was hardly very challenging.

The percussion book is more demanding, I concede. And they have some of their most difficult stuff while moving pretty fast, and doing body movement. They do have enough here to take the drum trophy.

In general, this show is about props and the 'tilt' concept, rather than music or drill.

"Tilt" is about how much DCI has leaned towards WGI, and how WGI judges score body movement as highly as demanding drill. In my book, difficulty should count for something.

I see more content and demand - even, surprisingly simultaneous marching/playing demand a for a few features - from BD, Crown and Cadets.

As much as I'd like to see a first-time champion this year, I'm skeptical that there is enough 'there' there in Tilt to beat the others in the top 4.

So, devil's advocacy over. How am I wrong?

To simply answer the question, NO, Bluecoats do not have enough to win this year.

Irving

Fan of the Arts