superOOk Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I would say a perfect score is common sense, not PR. What you are describing here is a curved scoring system. Which means you cannot compare any score in one season to another. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 I would say a perfect score is common sense, not PR. What you are describing here is a curved scoring system. Which means you cannot compare any score in one season to another. The truth is, you can't. Not objectively anyway. Judges know this. The corps know this. The PR people don't care, as it doesn't make for a good sound bite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Then perhaps they should outsource things and not be affiliated as DCI judges if the parent organization won't follow suit. PR or not, they use the term regularly. So why is it forbidden and flamethrown on DCP? If I'm forced to decide whether or not I'm calling a 20.0 a perfect score, I'm not going to listen to DCP, that's for sure. You can call it a perfect score all you want. You just won't be in agreement with the terminology on the sheets, or in the training manual. People throw around words. Get over it. According to the judging philosophy and the sheets, a 20.0 does not indicate perfect. Nobody has to convince you of that, because your opinion actually has zero bearing on what those numbers actually say. Choose to misinterpret them if you so please. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddyt Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Anyone who is under the allusion that a "perfect" score exists in a subjectively judged activity is smoking something they should be sharing. There is no literally perfect score in drum corps. BD could've walked out of Lucas Oil with a 100 and it would not be "perfect" show. If you cannot grasp that concept, you should not be arguing scores. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMcomguy Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 When you are setting a system based on achievement, and you create a ceiling, whether manufactured, artificial, or even superficial, there is a set expectation that the highest possible value is the highest possible, equating to some level or existence of perfection. You can claim all you want that the judging manual or training materials never use the word perfect, but they certainly use "achievement" and "possible" in their vocabulary. Perfect is not a mythological element. It's a non-fictional item that can certainly exist, therefore it is indeed possible. If we didn't want to hand out 20.0's then there shouldn't be a ceiling. Maybe this could be like WGI and we could all go to the diva retreat in the winter and collectively be implored to create a new Box 6 on the sheet. That would be faaabulous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 We should clarify the use of the word "perfect", even DCI feels it is indeed a perfect score when a 20 is achieved. According to their 2013 article regarding Crown's 20.0 in brass, they say (and I quote): "Carolina Crown (1st-98.30) picked up just 0.05 from Semifinals to hold off Blue Devils. Music Effect, Visual Analysis, Brass and Music Analysis were all tops in their captions, with Music Effect earning straight firsts in both sub-captions from both judges, (one of them awarded the corps a perfect score), and Brass earning a perfect 20.00." http://www.dci.org/news/view.cfm?news_id=638c642c-dc27-4a8a-97cd-688673a0753d#ixzz39xhsKvoV So if anyone here is doubting these scores being "perfect", then why does the mothership use that terminology if it's so darn taboo? Have you guys ever talked to these divas that are judging? I can tell you from being around some of them in the fall and winter activities, the majority of them would surely tell their gossip circles the tales of being a part of a show with a truckload of perfect scores. Shy isn't a quality witnessed much around this activity. I can say that I've talked to some judges who have awarded perfect scores at Championships (and to be fair, while some are humble folks some of them would readily admit to being divas so you're at least partially right there). Many of them have said, "yes, I caught a mistake or two, but they where that many tenths better than #2 so I gave them the perfect score," or maybe even, "they were about as close to perfect as I've every seen and I wanted to reward the kids for their awesome effort." I have heard one judge say, "that was without a doubt THE best caption performance I've ever witnessed in my X amount (decades) judging DCI)." You're right about being shy, which is why judges the caliber of DCI Championships week (read: the best of the marching arts activity) have no qualms assigning a number that correlates with their tapes & assessments. They know what they're doing, and as mentioned elsewhere when there is specific verbiage/qualifiers on the sheets correlated with specific number ranges, there isn't a lot of a choice. Eight corps tonight, on average, performed sub-captions in such a way that they "always" achieve the criteria on the sheets. That puts 8 corps in the 90-100 range, and if the top corps is significantly better than everyone else there aren't a lot of options for that final caption score. As for the above DCI website quote, they are: 1) hyping up their Champion 2) using publicity which often overstates accomplishments throughout the advertising publicity world 3) is likely talking down to the lowest common denominator instead of talking more intellectually in ways the average fan might not understand 4) does not want to diminish the amazing accomplishments of Crown 2013 brass (or, once a write-up goes up later this weekend, the 2014 Blue Devils) If you have an activity which has a finite scoring range, it is only a matter of time before that scoring range in maxed out. If judging sheets change in order to water down scores to keep spreads, then it will still be a matter of time before someone maxes out those sheets. It happens. While BD folks will (correctly) not want to diminish their extraordinary accomplishments this season, others will realize that it's maybe not about "perfection" and more about "maxed out spreads." Either way, why complain? They were great, Bluecoats were great at 2nd, Cadets, SCV, Crown, Cavaliers, etc. were all great as well. When the entire Top 6 is off-the-hook the corps continue to push each other for greatness and we as the fans continue to win! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMcomguy Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 P.S. I am not calling the Blue Devils perfect, nor claiming they were even close. I am merely telling you that 1) perfection does exist, 2) DCI uses the term, 3) smoking crack is bad for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 When you are setting a system based on achievement, and you create a ceiling, whether manufactured, artificial, or even superficial, there is a set expectation that the highest possible value is the highest possible, equating to some level or existence of perfection. You can claim all you want that the judging manual or training materials never use the word perfect, but they certainly use "achievement" and "possible" in their vocabulary. Perfect is not a mythological element. It's a non-fictional item that can certainly exist, therefore it is indeed possible. If we didn't want to hand out 20.0's then there shouldn't be a ceiling. Maybe this could be like WGI and we could all go to the diva retreat in the winter and collectively be implored to create a new Box 6 on the sheet. That would be faaabulous. Again, choose to misinterpret all you want. Nobody is arguing that perfect doesn't exist. We're saying that there is no way to indicate perfect in the judging criteria. What a 20.0 indicates is "I'm out of numbers if I stay true to the spreads". Sorry you don't get it, but the system works exactly as it is supposed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMcomguy Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 Anyone who is under the allusion that a "perfect" score exists in a subjectively judged activity is smoking something they should be sharing. There is no literally perfect score in drum corps. BD could've walked out of Lucas Oil with a 100 and it would not be "perfect" show. If you cannot grasp that concept, you should not be arguing scores. You are agreeing with me entirely. Their show was far from perfect. It was, however, the best of the night, and possibly one of the most well-executed shows in the activity we've ever seen. I'm just trying to indicate to you that the perfect score exists. We need to find another way to reach it though instead of using 20 as a ceiling. Because all too often in the public eye, they interpret 20 as perfect, and DCI exacerbates the issue by using that term frequently as well. It is an element that HAS to exist, we just don't know how or if it will ever be collectively agreeing upon that it would ever be right. Until that moment, we need to redefine what 20.0 means and why it is all too often used now in the activity. As someone said earlier, it wouldn't have mattered if the champion scored a 23.4 as long as the spreads were accurate. I couldn't agree more. But the question is, why are we here now? At 99.65. How did we get to this point? There were not 100 other corps out there where the numbers couldn't be managed more effectively to achieve a lesser value than 99.65, or 0.35 from perfect in the general populous' view out side of DCP. It's a flaw in this system that someone needs to brainstorm a solution for. Lest we view a 100 as indeed perfect when it inevitably happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 10, 2014 Share Posted August 10, 2014 But the question is, why are we here now? At 99.65. How did we get to this point? There were not 100 other corps out there where the numbers couldn't be managed more effectively to achieve a lesser value than 99.65, or 0.35 from perfect in the general populous' view out side of DCP. It's a flaw in this system that someone needs to brainstorm a solution for. Lest we view a 100 as indeed perfect when it inevitably happens. Ok, given your summation of the system it's clear you get it. But your last paragraph confuses me a bit. Why does it matter? Why do we need a lesser value? if the judges got the ranking right, and got the rating right, why does it matter what the sum total was? I'm not arguing with you...I just don't see the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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