2014 Drum Corps Associates World Championships Finals Competition

[androidx2]

Ok- deep breath. Big post. So here it goes....

First and foremost, I want to congratulate the members and staff of the Reading Buccaneers on their win on Sunday. I have no doubt they worked very hard to get that win and no one can say they didn't earn it. Regardless of ones personal feelings on the outcome, you can't not acknowledge that they had a great show, and it is apparent that everyone within that organization was working at their max to make that show as great as it could be. I would say both MBI and Cabs were probably putting in the same work ethic so I don't think its a "one corps won because they worked harder than the other" thing. As said before in this and other threads, I think any of the three shows could have won that night. I am bias in that I was a Cabs fan all year and was routing for them to win, and they didn't. But it doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the team that did. The one and only thing George Hopkins says that I agree with is that there are real people in those uniforms, and they are just as emotional as the fans.

Now for a few of my thoughts on the many topics being discussed on the boards currently. (Like any of you really care what I think anyway, but hey, it's a discussion forum for a reason right??)

Penaltygate: I think the rule that caused the penalty needs to be addressed by the administrations during the next rules congress. I'm not saying it should be eliminated as a boundary is there for a reason. But 1 full point is a hell of a lot. I remember only a few years ago it was a 10th for each infraction. A penalty is a penalty and enforcing it does show that regardless of the situation of the corps, no one is immune. That being said, the amount of the detraction seems very high. I would also argue it needs to be consistent as I saw infractions with many corps that evening in one form or another. I was on the 30 yard line 3 seats up from the front wall and saw this happen right in front of me. The two observations I had was one: The line judge was in the perfect place to see this happen. He was furiously writing notes on his clipboard during the Cabs show from halfway through the show to the end. It looked to me like he was noting all the uniforms tops the performers took off as they all went over the front sideline. This is not a penalty as they are considered equipment I believe.

But I did think it was interesting that the judge didn't write anything down for any other corps, but it looked like he was writing a book for Cabs before and after the infraction. The second observation is that I didn't see him move from the right side of the field the whole show. He pretty much floated between the 30-35 right were the dancer went out of bounds. For every other corps, he went all around the field. I'm not saying foul play... but I do think something fishy was going on there. I would not have been surprised if he was tipped off on where to look. If it's true this person was out of bounds in Prelims and in previous weeks, it wouldn't be hard for Corps A to say, "Hey, watch for this it might happen". Regardless of the fact that the penalty didn't change the placement, I do think it's still worth discussing. If he was tipped off, shame on DCA, the judge, and the organization that did the tipping. Every corps gets away with a little something, especially finals weekend. Just like how no one was supposed to use noise making tempo equipment in the warmup area and I was told both blue teams and the white team were wailing away on Gock blocks and Dr. Beats... no penalties there it seems. If the dancer did commit the infraction in previous weeks, that is on the Cabs for not catching it, and shame on DCA for not enforcing the penalty sooner to prevent this whole situation.

Consistent Scoring: I never thought I would agree with him, but a few pages ago VOREASON said something about the judges keeping things close all year and getting free reign Finals day. While we don't and never will know what, if anything, were the instructions from DCA, there is no doubt in my mind, that the storyline between Cabs and Bucs made for some good profit this year. DCA is a business in the end and the more people following the story means more ticket sales, more merchandise, more coverage, more advertising, more everything. I don't doubt for a second that after Wildwood, when everyone knew something different was going to happen this year, that the judging panels were told to keep if close. I'm not saying that Corps A was setup to always win or loose to Corps B... but keep it interesting. Thats not fair to all the corps involved. It sets one up for a big blow and if this did in fact happen, its a big blow to a corps that really could have used the win after a long wait to get back to that spot. If they didn't earn it.. then they didn't earn it. But I do find it really interesting how they were within a half point all season one way or the other, than finals night... BAM, 1.02 down. Bucs had a big 1.7 point swing in 24 hours. Anyone who has been in drum corps long enough knows that you don't/can't clean that much out of your show in 24 hours. Bottom line, if Bucs could have cleaned that much THAT fast, they would have done it after Scranton when they were within a half tenth, and after Reading, when they were .55 down. I highly, highly doubt that their work ethic changed that drastically in 24 hours. I'm sure they were pushing hard the whole time. Yes, Bucs had a hell of a show Sunday night, and it WAS better than Saturday afternoon. But so was MBI, and so was Cabs. It was consistently better all the way across. Fusion and C2 also had better shows. So I am absolutely scratching my head on how Prelims was consistent with June-August and Finals was like drawing a number from a hat. (And for the record, the Judge in Scranton who made it close between Cabs and Bucs, gave Cabs a big/proper Vis Effect number in Prelims well above Bucs.... so yes, Scranton was the exception. Plug the standard 2/10ths or 3/10ths above number in the way it was all season and Scranton was .50 ish spread between the two. Not .05)

Any by the way- that kind of happens every year. Finals always see's big swings that are inconsistent from the rest of the year. Why is that? Is it because the finals panel doesn't see the Prelims recap when during the year they can see the week prior? If that's the case, make it consistent throughout the year. If it really is supposed to be a clean slate each day, than change how this system operates. And for those saying "Hey it's any given day" just remember this could effect your team too. I've been watching/marching in DCA for a while. There are ABSOLUTELY times where a team got credit they probably shouldn't have gotten. Case in point, in Wayne, I sat next to a friend of mine who has judged DCI for a few years and has been in Music for 2 decades. He wholly felt that Fusion should have beaten Bucs in Wayne. But they weren't really that close in the numbers. The same goes for Kingston. Truthfully, Fusion should have topped Cabs in Kingston. They were better visually and musically. I'm not saying they would have stayed on top after, but for that weekend, they had it all. Each teams outcome could be different. Its all a matter of opinion anyway. Which brings me to point three..

How do we get judging to be less vague and subjective: I know it's not easy. But the CRAZY numbers swing between the Blue and Red team this weekend is a head scratcher. I would say the same thing if it went the other way too. It's just too inconsistent. How do we make it less so..? We don't know whats on the sheets so it's completely speculative, but what thoughts have you? Judges that said most of the year that Cabs had the better program suddenly and drastically felt differently in Finals. Even judges that saw them two weeks prior? Lets be honest... other than being cleaner, the programs didn't change that much at all. The design was still the same. The only difference is each team had less errors. How the blue team received a few perfect numbers Sunday night when their show didn't earn those design numbers the day before really makes me question the integrity of the entire system. No I am not a judge, I never have been. But I'm a huge drum corps fan with many years of experience. I know what a good hornline/drumline sounds like. I know what a good corps looks like on the move in todays day and age. All the corps had the same show between the two nights, just a tad more energy once the sun went down.

Where do we go from here??: Over the past few years, it seems like DCA has gotten locked into a certain style show that they prefer. This year was the best year in a long time for competition and drama. It was fun no matter what the outcome was. But what happened Sunday night to the Cabs was a blow to them, no question. And it was a blow to a big fan base. I've seen many groups take a hit Finals weekend between the two nights (more often than not, it's the Cabs, even when I hated them). Could I suggest maybe a three night weekend? Move to a Quarter, Semi's, Finals type of format. Sure the number of corps competing makes it hard to dwindle over three days. I would suggest Prelim's no one gets eliminated. Allow each corps a second change in Semi's. Semi's dwindles down the pack into who goes into Finals like we do now. And Finals is setup like we do, on Sunday night. Yes, that makes the weekend one day longer, yes that poses a financial problem for some corps, as well as more of a strain on the crowd for hotel, food etc... I see all the dynamics. But in the end, it's not THAT much more expensive. In fact, with an extra night, this allows hotels to give bigger discounts. The city would benefit from one more day of increased revenue. And lets be honest.... we all can budget one more day off of work via vacation or sick time. If we had a three day weekend with an extra show, these big 50/50 swings we saw this weekend and from the past would be minimized. With one more day, Cabs may very well have been the winners. Or MBI, or Fusion for that matter. If Bucs were really the best team, than performing one more night wouldn't have impacted their ranking at all.

Ok- Post over. Hopefully it didn't come across as bias. I think I spread it out evenly. I do feel like this year should have belonged to Hawthorne. In the end, I hope they continue on with the path they were on and light everyone up in 2015. With Fusion growing leaps and bounds each year, and C2 maybe deciding to put some effort into the rest of their program... next season might be, dare I say it.. EPIC. If nothing else, Cabs have returned to their former glory and should have earned the respect of everyone in the circuit again.

Edited September 2, 2014 by androidx2

[kenweaver]

2 different nights

2 different judging panels

2 different sets of eyes and ears

2 different sets of corps performances

That's all it is.

Also:

loose = not tight

lose = not win

[androidx2]

Also:

loose = not tight

lose = not win

You got me. In my quest to type a 2035 word post I type the letter O twice. Good thing you were here to catch it.

[ajlisko]

You got me. In my quest to type a 2035 word post I type the letter O twice. Good thing you were here to catch it.

Fun on:::::

That's what judges are paid to do!!!!!!

Fun off:::::

[Fran Haring]

Here is what I was able to find. If any of my numbers are off, please correct me.

The first DCA perliminary competition at finals was 1967. The Hurricanes won both the perliminary competition and the championship

• The first time a corps lost in prelims and went on to win finals was 1984. Reading won prelims with a 91.20 and Hawthorne won finals with 92.40
• The next time it happened was 1986. Hawthorne won prelims with an 89.65 and Bush won finals with a 92.45
• In 1988 Sun won prelims outright with a 94.00. Then Bush and Sun tied with a 96.36. This is an interesting one, as the winner of preliminaries did go on to win a championship
• It didn't happen again until 1996 When Hawthorne won prelims with a 95.40 and the Westshoremen went on to take finals with a 96.90
• The following year in 1997 Syracuse won prelims outright with a 96.00. Finals produced a tie between Empire and Syracuse with a 96.30. (Similar to what happened in 1988)
• And finally, 2014. Hawthorne took prelims with a 96.85 and Reading took finals with a 97.55

If there are any errors or omissions, please correct them.

Haven't read the whole thread... but there was no reversal in 1984. Cabs and Bucs tied at Prelims, Cabs won Finals outright.

The first reversal was 1986... Bushwackers from third to first. Cabs and Steel City had tied for first in Prelims that year.

The next full reversal was 1996... Cabs at Prelims, Westshoremen at Finals.

Then, this year.

1988 and 1997 were "partial reversals"... for lack of a better term.

Bush second at Prelims, the tied with Sun for first at Finals in '88... Empire Statesmen tied for second (with Cabs) at Prelims behind Brigs in '97... tied with Brigs for first at Finals.

[C.Holland]

BTW, if no one has said this already, great work as the voice of DCA Fran.

[Fran Haring]

BTW, if no one has said this already, great work as the voice of DCA Fran.

Thank you!!!! Very much appreciated!!!

[Jeff Ream]

Ok- deep breath. Big post. So here it goes....

First and foremost, I want to congratulate the members and staff of the Reading Buccaneers on their win on Sunday. I have no doubt they worked very hard to get that win and no one can say they didn't earn it. Regardless of ones personal feelings on the outcome, you can't not acknowledge that they had a great show, and it is apparent that everyone within that organization was working at their max to make that show as great as it could be. I would say both MBI and Cabs were probably putting in the same work ethic so I don't think its a "one corps won because they worked harder than the other" thing. As said before in this and other threads, I think any of the three shows could have won that night. I am bias in that I was a Cabs fan all year and was routing for them to win, and they didn't. But it doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the team that did. The one and only thing George Hopkins says that I agree with is that there are real people in those uniforms, and they are just as emotional as the fans.

Now for a few of my thoughts on the many topics being discussed on the boards currently. (Like any of you really care what I think anyway, but hey, it's a discussion forum for a reason right??)

Penaltygate: I think the rule that caused the penalty needs to be addressed by the administrations during the next rules congress. I'm not saying it should be eliminated as a boundary is there for a reason. But 1 full point is a hell of a lot. I remember only a few years ago it was a 10th for each infraction. A penalty is a penalty and enforcing it does show that regardless of the situation of the corps, no one is immune. That being said, the amount of the detraction seems very high. I would also argue it needs to be consistent as I saw infractions with many corps that evening in one form or another. I was on the 30 yard line 3 seats up from the front wall and saw this happen right in front of me. The two observations I had was one: The line judge was in the perfect place to see this happen. He was furiously writing notes on his clipboard during the Cabs show from halfway through the show to the end. It looked to me like he was noting all the uniforms tops the performers took off as they all went over the front sideline. This is not a penalty as they are considered equipment I believe.

But I did think it was interesting that the judge didn't write anything down for any other corps, but it looked like he was writing a book for Cabs before and after the infraction. The second observation is that I didn't see him move from the right side of the field the whole show. He pretty much floated between the 30-35 right were the dancer went out of bounds. For every other corps, he went all around the field. I'm not saying foul play... but I do think something fishy was going on there. I would not have been surprised if he was tipped off on where to look. If it's true this person was out of bounds in Prelims and in previous weeks, it wouldn't be hard for Corps A to say, "Hey, watch for this it might happen". Regardless of the fact that the penalty didn't change the placement, I do think it's still worth discussing. If he was tipped off, shame on DCA, the judge, and the organization that did the tipping. Every corps gets away with a little something, especially finals weekend. Just like how no one was supposed to use noise making tempo equipment in the warmup area and I was told both blue teams and the white team were wailing away on Gock blocks and Dr. Beats... no penalties there it seems. If the dancer did commit the infraction in previous weeks, that is on the Cabs for not catching it, and shame on DCA for not enforcing the penalty sooner to prevent this whole situation.

Consistent Scoring: I never thought I would agree with him, but a few pages ago VOREASON said something about the judges keeping things close all year and getting free reign Finals day. While we don't and never will know what, if anything, were the instructions from DCA, there is no doubt in my mind, that the storyline between Cabs and Bucs made for some good profit this year. DCA is a business in the end and the more people following the story means more ticket sales, more merchandise, more coverage, more advertising, more everything. I don't doubt for a second that after Wildwood, when everyone knew something different was going to happen this year, that the judging panels were told to keep if close. I'm not saying that Corps A was setup to always win or loose to Corps B... but keep it interesting. Thats not fair to all the corps involved. It sets one up for a big blow and if this did in fact happen, its a big blow to a corps that really could have used the win after a long wait to get back to that spot. If they didn't earn it.. then they didn't earn it. But I do find it really interesting how they were within a half point all season one way or the other, than finals night... BAM, 1.02 down. Bucs had a big 1.7 point swing in 24 hours. Anyone who has been in drum corps long enough knows that you don't/can't clean that much out of your show in 24 hours. Bottom line, if Bucs could have cleaned that much THAT fast, they would have done it after Scranton when they were within a half tenth, and after Reading, when they were .55 down. I highly, highly doubt that their work ethic changed that drastically in 24 hours. I'm sure they were pushing hard the whole time. Yes, Bucs had a hell of a show Sunday night, and it WAS better than Saturday afternoon. But so was MBI, and so was Cabs. It was consistently better all the way across. Fusion and C2 also had better shows. So I am absolutely scratching my head on how Prelims was consistent with June-August and Finals was like drawing a number from a hat. (And for the record, the Judge in Scranton who made it close between Cabs and Bucs, gave Cabs a big/proper Vis Effect number in Prelims well above Bucs.... so yes, Scranton was the exception. Plug the standard 2/10ths or 3/10ths above number in the way it was all season and Scranton was .50 ish spread between the two. Not .05)

Any by the way- that kind of happens every year. Finals always see's big swings that are inconsistent from the rest of the year. Why is that? Is it because the finals panel doesn't see the Prelims recap when during the year they can see the week prior? If that's the case, make it consistent throughout the year. If it really is supposed to be a clean slate each day, than change how this system operates. And for those saying "Hey it's any given day" just remember this could effect your team too. I've been watching/marching in DCA for a while. There are ABSOLUTELY times where a team got credit they probably shouldn't have gotten. Case in point, in Wayne, I sat next to a friend of mine who has judged DCI for a few years and has been in Music for 2 decades. He wholly felt that Fusion should have beaten Bucs in Wayne. But they weren't really that close in the numbers. The same goes for Kingston. Truthfully, Fusion should have topped Cabs in Kingston. They were better visually and musically. I'm not saying they would have stayed on top after, but for that weekend, they had it all. Each teams outcome could be different. Its all a matter of opinion anyway. Which brings me to point three..

How do we get judging to be less vague and subjective: I know it's not easy. But the CRAZY numbers swing between the Blue and Red team this weekend is a head scratcher. I would say the same thing if it went the other way too. It's just too inconsistent. How do we make it less so..? We don't know whats on the sheets so it's completely speculative, but what thoughts have you? Judges that said most of the year that Cabs had the better program suddenly and drastically felt differently in Finals. Even judges that saw them two weeks prior? Lets be honest... other than being cleaner, the programs didn't change that much at all. The design was still the same. The only difference is each team had less errors. How the blue team received a few perfect numbers Sunday night when their show didn't earn those design numbers the day before really makes me question the integrity of the entire system. No I am not a judge, I never have been. But I'm a huge drum corps fan with many years of experience. I know what a good hornline/drumline sounds like. I know what a good corps looks like on the move in todays day and age. All the corps had the same show between the two nights, just a tad more energy once the sun went down.

Where do we go from here??: Over the past few years, it seems like DCA has gotten locked into a certain style show that they prefer. This year was the best year in a long time for competition and drama. It was fun no matter what the outcome was. But what happened Sunday night to the Cabs was a blow to them, no question. And it was a blow to a big fan base. I've seen many groups take a hit Finals weekend between the two nights (more often than not, it's the Cabs, even when I hated them). Could I suggest maybe a three night weekend? Move to a Quarter, Semi's, Finals type of format. Sure the number of corps competing makes it hard to dwindle over three days. I would suggest Prelim's no one gets eliminated. Allow each corps a second change in Semi's. Semi's dwindles down the pack into who goes into Finals like we do now. And Finals is setup like we do, on Sunday night. Yes, that makes the weekend one day longer, yes that poses a financial problem for some corps, as well as more of a strain on the crowd for hotel, food etc... I see all the dynamics. But in the end, it's not THAT much more expensive. In fact, with an extra night, this allows hotels to give bigger discounts. The city would benefit from one more day of increased revenue. And lets be honest.... we all can budget one more day off of work via vacation or sick time. If we had a three day weekend with an extra show, these big 50/50 swings we saw this weekend and from the past would be minimized. With one more day, Cabs may very well have been the winners. Or MBI, or Fusion for that matter. If Bucs were really the best team, than performing one more night wouldn't have impacted their ranking at all.

Ok- Post over. Hopefully it didn't come across as bias. I think I spread it out evenly. I do feel like this year should have belonged to Hawthorne. In the end, I hope they continue on with the path they were on and light everyone up in 2015. With Fusion growing leaps and bounds each year, and C2 maybe deciding to put some effort into the rest of their program... next season might be, dare I say it.. EPIC. If nothing else, Cabs have returned to their former glory and should have earned the respect of everyone in the circuit again.

I saw the Cabs the week before and didn't notice any infractions on the boundary. Sadly it must have been a one time thing.

Yes it was close all year between Bucs and Cabs. Honestly, minus one judge at Readings home show, they were ahead. One judge called that show.

IMO, Bucs have NEVER been a good prelims corps. Even in 2012, the year you really couldn't deny they were the corps all year long, they didn't have a great run. Very good yes, great no.

The sheets are the same for all corps regardless of style. The sheet don't specify a certain type of design, they look for shows that are designed to be achieved, flow and make sense logically, as well as touch on all of the bullet points. DCA in it's 50 years have had a wild variety of show types win, and one thing every set of sheets did not do, was specify what type of show you had to do.

And the only instructions panels are given is "judge the show of the day". Knowing several judges, if they were tol to keep it close, they'd laugh in that person's face. There's no way to ensure that given you have several people all looking at different things, and then try to have them manage the total score while they manage their numbers? No way.

You'll never remove subjectivity. But guess what...the tic system was just as subjective as a clear tic was never EVER defined. In fact the sheets of today have for more criteria on them for judges to reference and use.

[N.E. Brigand]

I saw the Cabs the week before and didn't notice any infractions on the boundary. Sadly it must have been a one time thing.

Now that Prelims videos are up, we may be able to check the same moment during the previous day's show. Approximately when in the show did the problem occur in Finals?

[Ray Priester]

After reading so many of these posts, I have to wonder what the postings would have been like if we had the Internet back in 1972. That was just a bit controversial also.

And yes, we have let it go, but that does not mean that as long as there is still one of us left alive, we will never forget, not after 42 years, not ever, as I'm sure Cabs and others will never forget this circumstance.

As much as it hurts, this penalty did NOT cost a corps the Title, the other one DID. Just saying.

Ray