Is it a mistake?

[FlamMan]

They won't release recap numbers this year. It was proposed by and voted on by the member corps this past winter, not a decision by DCI's management team.

I love reviewing recaps & the sheets. My interest level in this activity has just gone down...again. This decision might just be the dumbest ever. Wow.

[HornTeacher]

Whatever the implications for the members, for fans, and for DCI, there will be an interesting psychology PhD thesis examining judging behavior as drawn from an analysis of [2016 recaps] vs. [pre-2016 recaps].

There you go getting all "Intelligentsia" on us yet again. ...

[MisterA]

Scores during the early season tend to be kind of worthless, with partial panels. I have always thought maybe DCI should save some money, and not start judging corps until the first big regional. Maybe start with the Denver show, and then not judge again until Minneapolis. Then have judges throughout the rest of the season. That would allow the staff and design team almost a full month to completely develop their own ideas without input from the judges. And it would still give them several weeks to implement any changes they feel the judges are asking for. And maybe it is just me, but I would much rather see shows develop the way they were intended, rather than changing them to just help them score higher from the judges. And with the money DCI saves on early season judges, maybe they could afford to pay a little more for licensing fees so we could get complete shows on DVD/CD/Bluray, or put towards the fannetwork so we could get at least partial archives back.

[HornTeacher]

Scores during the early season tend to be kind of worthless, with partial panels. I have always thought maybe DCI should save some money, and not start judging corps until the first big regional. Maybe start with the Denver show, and then not judge again until Minneapolis. Then have judges throughout the rest of the season. That would allow the staff and design team almost a full month to completely develop their own ideas without input from the judges. And it would still give them several weeks to implement any changes they feel the judges are asking for. And maybe it is just me, but I would much rather see shows develop the way they were intended, rather than changing them to just help them score higher from the judges. And with the money DCI saves on early season judges, maybe they could afford to pay a little more for licensing fees so we could get complete shows on DVD/CD/Bluray, or put towards the fannetwork so we could get at least partial archives back.

Combining the fiscal aspect with a pragmatic alternative. Very, very nice. Still thinking about your proposal...but I like the attempted solution/impact suggestion.

[cfirwin3]

Arguably, if we see different winners every night, then it can be looked at less of the herd mentality amongst the judging community and more independent thinkers. I think the music caption judges tend to be more independent vs the visual and effect judges IMO.

Yes... This^

That's what I was saying... we should see competitive corps changing placements with more regularity if there is to be any sort of "benefit" to this decision.

I don't think we will see that, but in theory it should happen with the closeness of competition lately.

ALTHOUGH... the opposite could also happen, where the slots become wider and corps become suddenly much less competitive. That COULD be an outcome... or a combination of the two possibilities for different groups.

But I would be disappointed to see ultra close scores all the time and little change in position from night to night... Like corps 1-5 all within 1.5 and rarely changing position.

[garfield]

Scores during the early season tend to be kind of worthless, with partial panels. I have always thought maybe DCI should save some money, and not start judging corps until the first big regional. Maybe start with the Denver show, and then not judge again until Minneapolis. Then have judges throughout the rest of the season. That would allow the staff and design team almost a full month to completely develop their own ideas without input from the judges. And it would still give them several weeks to implement any changes they feel the judges are asking for. And maybe it is just me, but I would much rather see shows develop the way they were intended, rather than changing them to just help them score higher from the judges. And with the money DCI saves on early season judges, maybe they could afford to pay a little more for licensing fees so we could get complete shows on DVD/CD/Bluray, or put towards the fannetwork so we could get at least partial archives back.

Couple problems here...

First, how does the corps implement changes suggested by the judges when the judges aren't there? If you're going to save money, which is your original thesis, then don't pay the judges to be there at all (or their travel/hotel costs). So how do the judges provide feedback?

Second, this just gives the corps extra time to complete their show. Fine. How do I, as a show producer, sell tickets to a show where the corps are not either putting up completed products or being judged on that product?

Worse, the way the judging system is now, the judges are supposed to only judge what IS there, not what WILL be there. So, at my June 28th event Corps-A comes on the field and does a dazzling 4 minutes of their incomplete show, Corps-B comes out and does an acceptable 7 minutes, Corps-C does a ragged but full 11 minutes. Corps-A scores highest, wins the night, and my paying fans go Huh?

Lastly, as a show sponsor, I'm buying a performance from DCI. What do I pay for an incomplete show? DCI does "discount" the price for early season shows, not necessarily incomplete early-season shows, so what do I pay and how do I price my tickets to cover the cost of my DCI contract?

Edited to add: if the corps aren't judged early season there is no - as in ZERO - incentive for them to finish their productions by the opening shows, and the end result will be fewer shows (what producers would pay for one?), a shorter season, and less revenue for DCI, not more from the savings of not paying judges.

Edited June 10, 2016 by garfield

[BRASSO]

Scores during the early season tend to be kind of worthless, with partial panels. I have always thought maybe DCI should save some money, and not start judging corps until the first big regional. Maybe start with the Denver show, and then not judge again until Minneapolis. Then have judges throughout the rest of the season. That would allow the staff and design team almost a full month to completely develop their own ideas without input from the judges. And it would still give them several weeks to implement any changes they feel the judges are asking for. And maybe it is just me, but I would much rather see shows develop the way they were intended, rather than changing them to just help them score higher from the judges. And with the money DCI saves on early season judges, maybe they could afford to pay a little more for licensing fees so we could get complete shows on DVD/CD/Bluray, or put towards the fannetwork so we could get at least partial archives back.

So you are proposing that the DCI competition season that used to run as long as 15 weeks ( and as long as 18 weeks in the pre DCI years ) be reduced now to approx 3 weeks ? That the Corps essentially do exhibitions for about month or more where presumably BD, Pacific Crest, et al on the West Coast, and Crown, 7th Regiment, et al on the East Coast, and Bluecoats, Pioneer, et al in the Midwest, would all equally share in the exhibition appearance fees ? And that the judges will give input during these June, July, exhibitions, but not be payed for all these exhibitions until they actually judge the Corps in real competition around the time of the Minneapolis Regional of July 16th ? If this is your proposal, I would think the judges, and the DCI Corps themselves would not be for this. And as for fans, if Corps are just going to give exhibitions, then thats about as compelling and interesting as watching spring training baseball, or spring training football. As for the halfass sized judging panels, I do agree with you that attempting to properly judge a Drum & Bugle Corps competition without a Drum Judge.. or a Brass judge.. or a Guard Judge seems stupid beyond belief. I'd rather DCI cut some fat out of their budgets, and put some dough back into the mix with a return to a 100% commitment to full panels for every competition, thereby providing these MM's that are busting their tails at 100%, an equal measure of full commitment to the endeavor.

Edited June 10, 2016 by BRASSO

[cfirwin3]

Scores during the early season tend to be kind of worthless, with partial panels. I have always thought maybe DCI should save some money, and not start judging corps until the first big regional. Maybe start with the Denver show, and then not judge again until Minneapolis. Then have judges throughout the rest of the season. That would allow the staff and design team almost a full month to completely develop their own ideas without input from the judges. And it would still give them several weeks to implement any changes they feel the judges are asking for. And maybe it is just me, but I would much rather see shows develop the way they were intended, rather than changing them to just help them score higher from the judges. And with the money DCI saves on early season judges, maybe they could afford to pay a little more for licensing fees so we could get complete shows on DVD/CD/Bluray, or put towards the fannetwork so we could get at least partial archives back.

well... I think that there is a difference between "worthless" and "worth less".

The early shows are certainly "worth less"... but they are worth something. You get a partial read on some aspects of the program and some idea for competitive standing and with whom that standing is. But for those reads to be "worthless", you would have to be getting completely bogus information that only serves to confuse any sort of projection for improvement. The incomplete panels certainly don't do THAT. They DO allow the judges to see the groups under less pressure with a more forgiving outcome. It gives the judges a chance to say something, and then hear back from the corps staff at the recap meetings. If you get rid of those incomplete panels... all communication will be deferred to a later date in the season.

Now, it may seem unethical to allow judges to be influenced by absorption over time and discussion... but this is a highly subjective competitive activity. The corps (all of them) and the fans, to some degree, willingly submit to the process. Over time and multiple reads the outcomes become consistent and beneficial. If that length of time is shorter and/or the number of reads is fewer... I don't think that we could argue that we end up in a 'better' place.

So, I'll go with you that the early shows are "worth less", but they are worth something, and thereby they are usefully better than nothing.

[MisterA]

Couple problems here...

First, how does the corps implement changes suggested by the judges when the judges aren't there? If you're going to save money, which is your original thesis, then don't pay the judges to be there at all (or their travel/hotel costs). So how do the judges provide feedback?

Second, this just gives the corps extra time to complete their show. Fine. How do I, as a show producer, sell tickets to a show where the corps are not either putting up completed products or being judged on that product?

Worse, the way the judging system is now, the judges are supposed to only judge what IS there, not what WILL be there. So, at my June 28th event Corps-A comes on the field and does a dazzling 4 minutes of their incomplete show, Corps-B comes out and does an acceptable 7 minutes, Corps-C does a ragged but full 11 minutes. Corps-A scores highest, wins the night, and my paying fans go Huh?

Lastly, as a show sponsor, I'm buying a performance from DCI. What do I pay for an incomplete show? DCI does "discount" the price for early season shows, not necessarily incomplete early-season shows, so what do I pay and how do I price my tickets to cover the cost of my DCI contract?

Edited to add: if the corps aren't judged early season there is no - as in ZERO - incentive for them to finish their productions by the opening shows, and the end result will be fewer shows (what producers would pay for one?), a shorter season, and less revenue for DCI, not more from the savings of not paying judges.

I am suggesting early season no judges. The judging will begin the time of the first regional, in mid July. There will still be 3 full weeks at the end of the season for judges comments to help the corps make changes. And in no way am I saying that corps shouldn't be putting finished shows on the field early season. I know a lot of people complain every year even when shows are being judged that certain corps don't have a finished show, or the show they are putting out will be changed mid season. Corps add things, including new endings every year mid season to help add more general effect to their shows. If there were no judging early season, it might be more likely that a corps would put their finals ending in a lot sooner, since it won't bump up their score by adding it in mid season, since the judging doesn't begin until then. This could be an advantage to early season fans seeing a show. Corps might be a little more willing to put a full show on the field early season since they won't be docked if it isn't perfect with no judges. It does seem in the last 5 years that the top corps seem to have closer to a full show than they used to. Since they have the theater shows which are seen nationwide, they seem to feel a little more pressure to put out completed shows. And with the smaller/lower placing corps it is completely understandable that sometimes they don't have a finished show. When over half of the kids in the corps are high school students, sometimes you don't have the full corps moved in until mid June with the first show a week later.

Holding the recaps in theory does sound like a great idea. But we all know most of the judges are friends, and will probably discuss things during the season. It is just the nature of the job. And when you look at scores during the season, even without recaps, you can tell approximately where the captions are probably going to be. And most judges have an idea of where the scores should be during that part of the season. Beginning of season, top corps usually score between 69-74 at their first show. And end of season top scores usually run between 94-99, with an occasional score over 99.

The big difference will be the fans won't have access to analyze and discuss every caption. I will kind of miss that, but if it actually does what it is supposedly intended to do, then I don't have a problem with that.

[BRASSO]

Corps in competition are rewarded for high placements. Any proposal that allows( for example ) Carolina Crown to share the proceeds equally in these proposed 5 week regional exhibitions with ( for example) the 7th Regiment , on that basis alone should not be automatically dismissed out of hand ( tongue placed firmly in cheek here.... haha!) Do I think any of the elite DCI Corps would be for any proposal that diminishes their expected high placement monies ? Not in your life .

Edited June 10, 2016 by BRASSO