N.E. Brigand Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I think the whole messaging around this from DCI ("those bad judges won't be able to peek at the recaps anymore") is dishonest. Did DCI actually say this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I do think things will be more accurate . . . especially in the beginning of the season. The judges have nothing else to go off of when seeing corps for the first time, so they are a lot more likely to give their real impressions. I expect that within two weeks the judging will become more consistent as the judges feel each other out because if you have ever been in the post competition sessions with directors and judges you know that things get said little by little. I think this sets the season up better as judges can first get their own opinions. Well, if "accurate" meant "showing how subjective judging really is", than I think you were right; we've now seen multiple scores jump up and down from show to show by four points or more (sometimes much more, and in just one day). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Did DCI actually say this? I'm exaggerating for effect, but here's DCI's press release on the subject: http://www.dci.org/ViewArticle.dbml?KEY=BULOQBZYRBLZDBW.20160702003621&SPSID=965782&SPID=166025&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=33500&ATCLID=211027702 Here's the key quote: According to DCI Artistic Director Michael Cesario, “The voting membership wanted to see if we could generate a freer response from the judges to each corps’ competitive performances. We all want to make sure that each corps is judged on the performances of the night, and what each judge hears and sees at that specific show under those specific conditions. If DCI has judges who are not assigning numbers based on the performances they see, then they have some bad judges. The way to fix a bad judge is to remove them from the circuit, not to hide information from them and hope that will somehow improve their accuracy. So yeah, I just don't buy DCI's stated rationale for the change. And I don't think it's professional for them to take public swipes at their judges, most of whom couldn't care less what number somebody else gave a couple of nights ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I'm exaggerating for effect, but here's DCI's press release on the subject: http://www.dci.org/ViewArticle.dbml?KEY=BULOQBZYRBLZDBW.20160702003621&SPSID=965782&SPID=166025&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=33500&ATCLID=211027702 Thank you! I missed that press release entirely (coming as it did more than five months after they actually announced the change). Wow, Cesario even used the word "slotted"! As for your larger point, the funny thing is, so far the change may be having some effect (for better or worse), or we wouldn't see such weird score changes as we have the past few days. Maybe at the end of the season, Cesario will be telling the judges, "See, the directors were right!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 If you believe the judges aren't seeing full recaps, I have a bridge to sell you. Well, if they're not, then I am curious to know what's caused the large jumps and falls of the past few days, which are out of line with the way scores changed from show to show in the past few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I think what Kamarag was implying was that even though judges aren't supposed to see full recaps, they could probably get them through surreptitious means. I've seen that argument made quite a bit, even suggestions that judges could deconstruct the recaps that are provided. What I think everyone is overestimating is the desire for judges to see full recaps. It would take some serious effort to get full recaps, and I bet a lot of judges just don't care enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I think what Kamarag was implying was that even though judges aren't supposed to see full recaps, they could probably get them through surreptitious means. I've seen that argument made quite a bit, even suggestions that judges could deconstruct the recaps that are provided. What I think everyone is overestimating is the desire for judges to see full recaps. It would take some serious effort to get full recaps, and I bet a lot of judges just don't care enough. Yeah, that was my take on his post as well (the judges could get hold of the recaps if they wanted to), and I think you also make a good point: that they may not want to after all. And yet, and yet, right now it does seem like something has changed (although we don't have very many data points yet). Maybe the judges don't really care much about previous recaps, but even so, when they were so conveniently available on DCI's site, they checked them anyway? Were judges admonished during past seasons for giving scores that seemed notably out of line with those of their colleagues, so that they'd want to know approximately where each group was just to avoid that headache? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shofmon88 Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Yeah, that was my take on his post as well (the judges could get hold of the recaps if they wanted to), and I think you also make a good point: that they may not want to after all. And yet, and yet, right now it does seem like something has changed (although we don't have very many data points yet). Maybe the judges don't really care much about previous recaps, but even so, when they were so conveniently available on DCI's site, they checked them anyway? Were judges admonished during past seasons for giving scores that seemed notably out of line with those of their colleagues, so that they'd want to know approximately where each group was just to avoid that headache? I'm sure they DID check when recaps were available. Obviously something HAS changed in how things are scored. The only known, and certainly the most obvious, variable is the elimination of recaps. I don't know if there was pressure from other judges involved, but what I do know is that confirmation bias can play a large role in judging activities like drum corps. Just seeing other scores may have been enough to unconsciously influence judges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va9590jm Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 Well, if "accurate" meant "showing how subjective judging really is", than I think you were right; we've now seen multiple scores jump up and down from show to show by four points or more (sometimes much more, and in just one day). And is this a problem? Especially early season, there is much more variance in performance day to day than late season. Corps are making many more changes and additions during these weeks than they do during the weeks after Atlanta. They're still working on endurance to be able to fully complete the show to its maximum performance level. If judges are truly calling it like they see it on that days performance, then this should be expected, same with spreads between corps getting larger and smaller and larger again day to day for these very same reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 If you believe the judges aren't seeing full recaps, I have a bridge to sell you. or fans that know people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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