Beanpot Invitational - Lynn, MA July 3rd

[Cappybara]

I won't comment on what the judging might be in the BOA Marching Band realm, as for all I know, their system might be flawed in this respect too.

My remarks are confined to DCI and the Brass Caption alone ( not GE Music, for example ). When we had 60-80 brass lines with essentially the same brass instruments being utilized, it was possible to compare, contrast, then score the brass lines are to which was played, quality wise " better ". However, when we change the instrumentation, to different brass instruments mixes among the Corps to be judged on " Brass " line quality, the notion that a brass judge ( as good as they might be) can tell us which was " better " in brass line playing qualities is not possible. It just isn't. The fact that a Judge, and its organization, believe that it can be done, does not mean that it can, nor even should, be done. Since the instrumentation has been changed in such a major way in these brass lines, I'd be perfectly fine if DCI simply decided now to do away with the Brass Caption altogether, and have it merged into the " GE Music " Caption, where I still believe that well trained and experienced judges DO have the evaluative skills to determine which Corps brass playing abilities have the " better " desired overall effect compared with other competitors in the show.

If DCI thought that a brass line judge can properly evaluate if a trumpet player is " better " than a trombone player, then they would have their I & E judges have to judge ( for example ) 10 brass players on 10 different brass instruments to determine who was the " best " brass player in the competition. But they would never do that, as some of these 10 brass instruments are easier to play than others, and some have range possibilities that some others in the mix do not have. Ergo, we don't ask these I & E judges to compare apples to oranges. DCI has their I & E judges compare apples to apples, by having the trumpeters compete with other trumpeters... baritones with other baritones.... trombones with other trombones, and so forth. But on the field of competition, DCI believes that that the brass judge can tell us which 80 person brass line with different instruments is " better " than another utilizing a different " weapon " altogether for their brass sound. Since the sound coming from these disparate brass instruments will be entirely different, no such " better " evaluation can be made. Its now a matter of what brass sound the brass judge likes and prefers. No more, no less. A judge can compare, contrast, score a competition between orchestras using essentially the same instruments in the orchestra, and tell us which orchestra was " better ". But can we ask the same judge to judge a Symphony Orchestra with one form of instruments, and compare and score that orchestra against a Big Band Orchestra ? Well, yes we COULD ask that judge to do the impossible. But can such a judge effectively tell us if the Big Band Orchestra was " better " or " worse " than the Symphony Orchestra ? No. It can't be done. Its impossible. The disparate instrumentation makes the task to determine which sound was " better " impossible. Such a judge, no matter his or her outstanding musical ear , training, and pedigree, can only tell us which of the sounds of the 2 competing Orchestra's that judge " likes" and " prefers " to hear. No more , no less.

Just because you act like your word is fact doesn't make it fact, brasso.

Why do you think it's not possible to compare slightly different orchestrations? They are judging the quality of the playing, the blend, the intonation, dynamics, phrasing. This is all inherently subjective. There's a reason we use judges rather than robots to judge such a caption. When do corps use the exact same number of players in each section every single year? There's no consistency there, the brass caption has always been a subjective manner. There's no way to pinpoint what group is phrasing the composition better than the other unless they both play the exact same pieces, yet judges have been making these comparisons for decades.

The pit for each corps use different instrumentation, guards use different equipment, why is different instrumentation in brass any different?

[corpsband]

Just because you act like your word is fact doesn't make it fact, brasso.

Why do you think it's not possible to compare slightly different orchestrations? They are judging the quality of the playing, the blend, the intonation, dynamics, phrasing. This is all inherently subjective. There's a reason we use judges rather than robots to judge such a caption. When do corps use the exact same number of players in each section every single year? There's no consistency there, the brass caption has always been a subjective manner. There's no way to pinpoint what group is phrasing the composition better than the other unless they both play the exact same pieces, yet judges have been making these comparisons for decades.

The pit for each corps use different instrumentation, guards use different equipment, why is different instrumentation in brass any different?

his whole argument = "it's impossible because I say it's impossible".

[BRASSO]

.

Also, as regards, your statement that "The fact that a judge, and its organization, believe that it can be done, does not mean that it can, nor even should, be done", why should we trust your expertise over that of the judges?

I am not asking you to " trust my expertise over that of the DCI judges ". I am only expressing my opinion here, and my personal observation.. no more, no less. People can certainly do whatever they want.

Can we compare baseball hitters in MLB as to which is the " better hitter". While its a bit subjective, it can be reasonably done as we have hitting averages, stats, etc that can be utilized to base our opinions on this. We can rank the hitters too. We can quibble around the edges, and while not perfect, we can still within reason rank the " hitters " on a " better " basis. Now.... lets change the dynamic. Lets take the hitter of a ball with a different " bat ", and see if we can compare and rank who the " better " hitter is. Can we say if an all star MLB hitter is " better " or " worse " than a an all star cricket game " hitter " ? No. It can't be done. We might try to determine which is the better " hitter " by looking at their respective hitting averages, stats and whatnot. But no comparison can be effectively made by virtue of the fact that the " bat " is now different ( among other things ). That said, despite the fact we can't possibly say which is the " better " hitter, can we say which of the 2 hitters of a thrown ball, we " prefer " and " like " ? Sure. As a matter of fact, if we required a judge to tell us which was the " better " hitter, of the 2, he'd do so, but only on the " like " basis, as no such " better" comparison can possibly be done... as the ' weapon " ( the bat ) in the competition comparison has been majorly altered in such a fashion that it renders the " better " hitter evaluation decision null and void on that basis alone.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[Cappybara]

I am not asking you to " trust my expertise over that of the DCI judges ". I am only expressing my opinion here, and my personal observation.. no more, no less. People can certainly do whatever they want.

Can we compare baseball hitters in MLB as to which is the " better hitter". While its a bit subjective, it can be reasonably done as we have hitting averages, stats, etc that can be utilized to base our opinions on this. Now.... lets change the dynamic. Lets take the hitter of a ball with a different " bat ", and see if we can compare who the " better " hitter is. Can we say if an all star MLB hitter is " better " or " worse " than a an all star cricket game " hitter " ? No. It can't be done. We might try to determine which is the better " hitter " by looking at their respective hitting averages, stats and whatnot. But no comparison can be effectively made by virtue of the fact that the " bat " is now different ( among other things ). That said, despute the fact we can't possibly say which is the " better " hitter, can we say which of the 2 hitters of a thrown ball, we " prefer " and " like " ? Sure. As a matter of fact, if we required a judge to tell us which was the " better " hitter, of the 2, he'd do so, but only on the " like " basis, as no such " better" comparison can possibly be done... as the ' weapon " ( the bat ) in the competition comparison has been majorly altered in such a fashion that it renders the " better " hitter evaluation decision null and void on that basis alone.

Except, this is not a sport with objective and measurable standards...

[BRASSO]

Why do you think it's not possible to compare slightly different orchestrations?

The more different the instrumentation, the more subjective the score and the ranking, imo

If the brass instrumentation is mostly similar in instrumentation among the Corps, a brass judge's score and ranking is far more objective in an otherwise subjective endeavor.... than if the judge is asked to judge the quality of the brass playing when now we change in a major way the instrumentation mix among the Corps he or she is asked to score and rank. This essentially falls into the realm of simple common sense here, imo. It is much easier to compare, score and rank similar things. The more dissimilar those things become, the more subjective the score and the ranking becomes with the now more increasingly dissimilar things. Does this make sense to you from a simple logical and rationale approach ? Let me go one step further. I predict that over the coming weeks we are going to see unprecedented volatility in the scores of the Corps.... even when we add the full panels. When we see this... will you do yourself a favor ? Come back to this thread, and read my comments regarding how much more difficult it becomes when we have the brass instrumentations now becoming so dissimilar than ever before among the competing Corps to be judged in competition.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

Except, this is not a sport with objective and measurable standards...

Yes on the first ( not objective ), but no on the 2nd, Cappybara... DCI absolutely believes it has " measurable standards " in its judging system. DCI even expresses this.. Without " measurable standards ", no compelling case could be made to judge in performance these Corps in the first place. So clearly DCI believes that it has developed " measurable standards " for its judges to utilize as its method to properly score and rank the Corps. I think DCI does a very good job in putting those standards together, and for the most part, has hired fair and competant people to utilize these ": measurable standards ". But we have entered brand new , unprecedented territory now, as the brass instrumentation mix among the Corps makes the musical sounds more dissimilar in sounds among the units than at any time in memory. In my opinion... hey just my opinion here, ok ?..... a case can be made that judges can utilize the GE Music caption still. But can a brass judge effectively compare, contrast, rank and score these Corps on brass line quality, ( ie, which is " better " ) when the brass instrumentation ( the weapons of the competition ) is so vastly different, creating vastly different musical sounds to compare and contrast ? No, it can't be effectively and properly done, no matter how well qualified the brass judges are. Such a brass judge can only tell us now, which of the entirely different sounds he " likes " and " prefers " now. The more dissimilar the sound, and the more dissimilar the brass instruments become among the competitors in competition, the more subjective... if not down right impossible... the task becomes, imo. Thats my opinion, and most of it is based on simple logic, coupled with just plain old common sense here.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[Cappybara]

The more different the instrumentation, the more subjective the score and the ranking, imo

If the brass instrumentation is mostly similar in instrumentation among the Corps, a brass judge's score and ranking is far more objective in an otherwise subjective endeavor.... than if the judge is asked to judge the quality of the brass playing when now we change in a major way the instrumentation mix among the Corps he or she is asked to score and rank. This essentially falls inti thge realm of simple common sense. It is much easy to compare, score and rank similar things. The more dissimilar those things become, the more subjective the score and the ranking becomes with the now more dissimilar things. Does this make sense to you from a simple logical and rationale approach ? Let me go one step further. I predict that over the coming weeks we ate going to see unprecedented volatility in the scores of the Corps.... even when we add the full panels. When we see this... will you do yourself a favor ? Come back to this thread, and read my comments regarding how much more difficult it becomes when we have the brass instrumentations now becoming so dissimilar than ever before among the competing Corps to be judged in competition.

That would be a great experiment had the conditions remained the same from last year. However, a new twist has been added in which recaps are hidden, and so there's no way to pinpoint whether the increased variety in orchestration is causing volatility in scoring.

Either way, we will not be able to see this supposed volatility until after finals.

[Cappybara]

Yes on the first ( not objective ), but no on the 2nd, Cappybara... DCI absolutely believes it has " measurable standards " in its judging system. DCI even expresses this.. Without " measurable standards ", no compelling case could be made to judge in performance these Corps in the first place. So clearly DCI believes that it has developed " measurable standards " for its judges to utilize as its method to properly score and rank the Corps. I think DCI does a very good job in putting those standards together, and for the most part, has hired fair and competant people to utilize these ": measurable standards ". But we have entered brand new , unprecedented territory now, as the brass instrumentation mix among the Corps makes the musical sounds more dissimilar in sounds among the units than at any time in memory. In my opinion... hey just my opinion here, ok ?..... a case can be made that judges can utilize the GE Music caption still. But can a brass judge effectively compare, contrast, rank and score these Corps on brass line quality, ( ie, which is " better " ) when the brass instrumentation ( the weapons of the competition ) is so vastly different, creating vastly different musical sounds to compare and contrast ? No, it can't be effectively and properly done, no matter how well qualified the brass judges are. Such a brass judge can only tell us now, which of the entirely different sounds he " likes " and " prefers " now. The more dissimilar the sound, and the more dissimilar the brass instruments become among the competitors in competition, the more subjective... if not down right impossible... the task becomes, imo. Thats my opinion, and most of it is based on simple logic, coupled with just plain old common sense here.

How exactly do you think brass judging works? You keep putting an emphasis on judges "judging different sounds he 'likes' and 'prefers.'" However, the balance an ensemble uses (BD, Crown, Cavies, etc already have very different sounds to be compared...) is only a small component of brass judging. As I mentioned before, intonation, phrasing, dynamics, mood, etc make up the brass caption. Will increasing the variety of instrumentation make judging one component of the brass caption a little more difficult? Maybe. But judges already have to deal with very different ensemble sounds that arise from different instrument manufacturers, different ratios of low to high brass, different compositions being played, and so on. I think that the judges can handle adding some trombones and french horns into the mix (not to mention flugelhorns that have already been extensively used in drum corps with no issue).

[BRASSO]

, intonation, phrasing, dynamics, mood, etc make up the brass caption. Will increasing the variety of instrumentation make judging one component of the brass caption a little more difficult? Maybe. But judges already have to deal with very different ensemble sounds that arise from different instrument manufacturers,.

A brass judge can judge the sound of an instrument from " different instrument manufacturers " far more easily than asking him or her to judge different instruments altogether.

I recognize that ultimately a brass judge will be asked to tell us if Cadets, Crown, or Blue Devils have this seasons " best brass line ". I maintain that with the now unprecedented different utilizations of brass instruments among these 3 Corps that this evaluation as to which is the " best brass line " will be far more subjective an endeavor on the part of this brass judge than when he or she was asked to do so when the brass instruments were far more similar in nature among all the Corps. Look, if people believe that a brass judges duties are as easy as before these dissimilar brass instruments were added to the mix, I will accept that. But please allow me to believe that when we change the brass instruments mix in a major, major way among the competing Corps, we are making the decision making on the part of the brass judge far more subjective forthan when he or she was not previously required to determine " better " and " the best " brass lines when the brass lines instrumentation utilized was far more similar in nature than it is now. For example, the brass line sound of Cadets, Crown, Blue Coats this season is unlike any other top 3 brass line Corps we can think of, in any other season. We are not comparing the early 90's Star of Indiana's brass line with that of the early 90's Blue Devils brass line here. The brass line judges could effectively compare and contrast, score that... although it was subjective then too, of course. But the brass instrumentation for the brass line " better " determination distinction was present. If BD wins the brass line award this August however, did Crown make a mistake in not utilizing the trombone sound as much as BD did ? One would have to think so. Or we could ask ourselves if Cadets win the high brass award, if BD's and Crown's decisions not to utilize so much of the french horns might have been their mistake. These were NOT the questions we had to ask ourselves before. But at the end of this season, people will be asking themselves these questions ( especially within the corps themselves ). This is because whoever wins this years High Brass Award will be utilizing a brass instrumentation mix that will be very.., VERY... unlike the also rans in the Brass Caption award determination as to what Corps had " the best " brass line in DCI this year. Anyway, its something for us to think about anyway, for those that like to ponder this stuff.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

A brass judge can judge the sound of an instrument from "different instrument manufacturers" far more easily than asking him or her to judge different instruments altogether.

Have you actually asked any brass judges if this is true?