Beanpot Invitational - Lynn, MA July 3rd

[Fran Haring]

A brass judge can judge the sound of an instrument from " different instrument manufacturers " far more easily than asking him or her to judge different instruments altogether.

I recognize that ultimately a brass judge will be asked to tell us if Cadets, Crown, or Blue Devils have this seasons " best brass line ". I maintain that with the now unprecedented different utilizations of brass instruments among these 3 Corps that this evaluation as to which is the " best brass line " will be far more subjective an endeavor on the part of this brass judge than when he or she was asked to do so when the brass instruments were far more similar from which he or she ranked them as to which was " the best " brass line. Look, if people believe that a brass judges duties are as easy as before these dissimilar brass instruments were added to the mix, I will accept that. But please allow me to believe that when we change the brass instruments mix in a major, major way among the competing Corps, we are making the decision making on the part of the brass judge far more subjective for him than when he or she was not previously required to determine " better " and " the best " brass lines when the brass instrumentation utilized was far more similar in nature than it is now. The brass line sound of Cadets, Crown, Blue Coats this season is unlike any other top 3 brass line Corps we can think of, in any other season. We are not comparing the early 90's Star of Indiana's brass line with that of the early 90's Blue Devils brass line. The judges could effectively compare and contrast, score that... although it was subjective then too, of course. But the brass instrumentations for the brassb line " better " distinction was present. If BD wins the brass line award this August, did Crown make a mistake in not utilizing the trombone sound as much as BD did ? One would have to think so. Or we could ask ourselves if Cadets win the brass, if BD's and Crown's decisions not to utilize so much of the French Horns might have been their mistake. These were NOT the questions we had to ask ourselves before.... but at the end of this season, people will be asking themselves these questions ( especially within the corps themselves ) as whoever wins this years brass 1st place will be utilizing a brass instrumentation mix very, VERY unlike the also rans in the Brass caption. Anyway, its something for us to think about anyway, for those that like to ponder the previously unponderable.

Man... how do you find the time to write all this stuff???

[Cappybara]

A brass judge can judge the sound of an instrument from " different instrument manufacturers " far more easily than asking him or her to judge different instruments altogether.

I recognize that ultimately a brass judge will be asked to tell us if Cadets, Crown, or Blue Devils have this seasons " best brass line ". I maintain that with the now unprecedented different utilizations of brass instruments among these 3 Corps that this evaluation as to which is the " best brass line " will be far more subjective an endeavor on the part of this brass judge than when he or she was asked to do so when the brass instruments were far more similar in nature among all the Corps. Look, if people believe that a brass judges duties are as easy as before these dissimilar brass instruments were added to the mix, I will accept that. But please allow me to believe that when we change the brass instruments mix in a major, major way among the competing Corps, we are making the decision making on the part of the brass judge far more subjective forthan when he or she was not previously required to determine " better " and " the best " brass lines when the brass lines instrumentation utilized was far more similar in nature than it is now. For example, the brass line sound of Cadets, Crown, Blue Coats this season is unlike any other top 3 brass line Corps we can think of, in any other season. We are not comparing the early 90's Star of Indiana's brass line with that of the early 90's Blue Devils brass line here. The brass line judges could effectively compare and contrast, score that... although it was subjective then too, of course. But the brass instrumentation for the brass line " better " determination distinction was present. If BD wins the brass line award this August however, did Crown make a mistake in not utilizing the trombone sound as much as BD did ? One would have to think so. Or we could ask ourselves if Cadets win the high brass award, if BD's and Crown's decisions not to utilize so much of the french horns might have been their mistake. These were NOT the questions we had to ask ourselves before. But at the end of this season, people will be asking themselves these questions ( especially within the corps themselves ). This is because whoever wins this years High Brass Award will be utilizing a brass instrumentation mix that will be very.., VERY... unlike the also rans in the Brass Caption award determination as to what Corps had " the best " brass line in DCI this year. Anyway, its something for us to think about anyway, for those that like to ponder this stuff.

Your stance is based on a whole lot of assumptions. It's a little hard to have debate with you when you're not engaging with any of the points I'm trying to make, and instead rambling on tangents or repeating what you were saying before.

Let's consider it a difference of opinions.

[BRASSO]

Man... how do you find the time to write all this stuff???

I hire hobos from the trains that run by to milk the cows, put the hay in the barn, clean the chicken coop, etc.

[Ghost]

I give up. Guess there will be no more Beanpot discussion.

[BRASSO]

Have you actually asked any brass judges if this is true?

Have you actually asked any brass judges if what I just posted, is not true ?

[MikeD]

I won't comment on what the judging might be in the BOA Marching Band realm, as for all I know, their system might be flawed in this respect too.

My remarks are confined to DCI and the Brass Caption alone ( not GE Music, for example ). When we had 60-80 brass lines with essentially the same brass instruments being utilized, it was possible to compare, contrast, then score the brass lines are to which was played, quality wise " better ". However, when we change the instrumentation, to different brass instruments mixes among the Corps to be judged on " Brass " line quality, the notion that a brass judge ( as good as they might be) can tell us which was " better " in brass line playing qualities is not possible. It just isn't. The fact that a Judge, and its organization, believe that it can be done, does not mean that it can, nor even should, be done. Since the instrumentation has been changed in such a major way in these brass lines, I'd be perfectly fine if DCI simply decided now to do away with the Brass Caption altogether, and have it merged into the " GE Music " Caption, where I still believe that well trained and experienced judges DO have the evaluative skills to determine which Corps brass playing abilities have the " better " desired overall effect compared with other competitors in the show.

If DCI thought that a brass line judge can properly evaluate if a trumpet player is " better " than a trombone player, then they would have their I & E judges have to judge ( for example ) 10 brass players on 10 different brass instruments to determine who was the " best " brass player in the competition. But they would never do that, as some of these 10 brass instruments are easier to play than others, and some have range possibilities that some others in the mix do not have. Ergo, we don't ask these I & E judges to compare apples to oranges. DCI has their I & E judges compare apples to apples, by having the trumpeters compete with other trumpeters... baritones with other baritones.... trombones with other trombones, and so forth. But on the field of competition, DCI believes that that the brass judge can tell us which 80 person brass line with different instruments is " better " than another utilizing a different " weapon " altogether for their brass sound. Since the sound coming from these disparate brass instruments will be entirely different, no such " better " evaluation can be made. Its now a matter of what brass sound the brass judge likes and prefers. No more, no less.............................. For an even better example of this : A judge can effectively compare, contrast, score a competition between orchestras that are using essentially the same instruments in the orchestra, and tell us which orchestra was " better ". But can we ask the same judge to judge an outstanding Symphony Orchestra with one form of instruments, and compare and score that orchestra against an outstanding Big Band Orchestra ? Well, yes we COULD ask that judge to do the impossible. But can such a judge effectively tell us if the outstanding Big Band Orchestra was " better " or " worse " than the outstanding Symphony Orchestra ? No. It can't be done. Its impossible. The disparate instrumentation makes the task to determine which sound was " better " impossible. Such a judge, no matter his or her outstanding musical ear , training, and pedigree, can only tell us which of the sounds of the 2 competing outstanding Orchestra's that evaluation judge " likes" and " prefers " to hear. No more , no less.

Judging the quality and performance of what is presented is how it is done. If they use trombones...are they creating a characteristic trombone sound...if French horns, are they creating a characteristic French horn sound. The same goes with every instrument being used. The judges job is to rank and rate the performance being presented on the instruments being used. It is not all that difficult a concept. In the ensemble caption, the judge evaluates the totality of the presented ensemble. The example of the marching band world, where this type of evaluation has been done for half a century+, is relevant, IMO. Are the trombones sticking out? Are the tubas in balance? Is the sonority of the sound matching the instrumentation being used?

I don't really see the issue here that you seem to see. The concept is not new.

[Fran Haring]

I hire hobos from the trains that run by to milk the cows, put the hay in the barn, clean the chicken coop, etc.

"Trailer for sale or rent..." LOL

[BRASSO]

Your stance is based on a whole lot of assumptions. It's a little hard to have debate with you when you're not engaging with any of the points I'm trying to mak

Let's consider it a difference of opinions.

I do consider it a " difference of opinion". is there anything wrong with this, Cappy ? I have not demanded that you adopt my position, nor demeaned you in any way for believing what you do on this. And I do not consider this a debate. I consider this more of a discussion... oh well.

[N.E. Brigand]

Judging the quality and performance of what is presented is how it is done. If they use trombones...are they creating a characteristic trombone sound...if French horns, are they creating a characteristic French horn sound. The same goes with every instrument being used. The judges job is to rank and rate the performance being presented on the instruments being used.

I hate to complicate this, but: what if a given group using, e.g., trombones, doesn't want to create a "characteristic" trombone sound but is aiming for something different?

[N.E. Brigand]

Have you actually asked any brass judges if what I just posted, is not true ?

I have not. But your position appears to be that the brass judges can't be doing what they appear to be doing--that they've been given an impossible assignment. If that were so, I'm surprised they haven't rebelled.