Beanpot Invitational - Lynn, MA July 3rd

[Cappybara]

And it appears they responded to the criticisms. While there is still narration and singing in DCI Drum Corps, there is far far less of this found among the elite Corps. It was not that long ago that not only was Crown heavy into Narration, but so wasn't the Cadets. Who can forget the Cadets front and center lecturer that talked throughout much of their show just a few years back ? Most of the Narration and singing among the Elite Corps was a passing phase that they tried out, then discarded. Now, " The Next Big Thang " in DCI Drum Corps are the " Bones ", and " the Frenchies ", as well as seeing what synthetic electronic sounds can be created out the Sound Machines. I have sympathy for the brass and music judges, as the disparate instrumentation being utilized among the various Corps creates completely different musical sounds that makes comparing which sound is " better " impossible. So now these judges will be scoring based upon what completely different sounds they personally " like " entering their ear canal. As such, they'll be all sorts of volatility of scores among the judges moving forward from here on in now, imo.

All corps put out very different sounds even before the different instrumentation. BD, Crown, Cadets, Cavies, etc don't sound alike in any way whatsoever. It has always been a subjective matter and the new instrumentation doesn't really change anything

[BRASSO]

The CYO band I marched with always had a bus that went to CYO Nationals and World Open. We would buy the corps memorabilia and it would be suggested we not wear t-shirts that supported local corps and New Jersey corps which would have been 27th, BAC, North Star, Bridgemen, and Garfield to circuit competitions. Blue Devils, Madison, Phantom, etc were fine. If the "senior" (not age based, too level) or Class A drum corps for Eastern Mass competed, no corps t-shirts at all. Years later I learned it was to avoid fights because the corps had their fair share of hotheads.

I think a fair amount of 27th and North Star folks have instructed for BAC, quite a few alums of these corps financially support the Crusaders, and are glad at least one corps still exist. While I can't speak for the people who marched in the 60's for St. Kevin's, St. Mary's Charlestown, St. Mary's Cardinals, ot the other corps of that era, I do know some of the people who marched with some of the very good though not elite corps from Massachusetts of the 1970's and early 80's can feel out of the mix, and these rivalries do surface, and you will hear jabs about BAC being gang like, 27th being snobs, and North Star only wanting to have fun and partying all the time.

To Boston Crusaders credit, I think they do a good amount of work to make everyone feel at home at their shows and if you once marched with any area drum corps, drill team, or CYO band, you are part of the extended drum corps family. I know this is a development technique meant to raise funds, but if it is not well done or smacks of insincerity, it does not work. And since this is a Beanpot thread, Cardinals Alumni Association does an exemplary job at running a show too.

One of the best changes in Drum Corps over the years is the manner upon which most of these marchers in Corps , on the whole, respect one another off the field. Part of this is the typical marcher has changed, but a lot of it is that the Corps are not as territorial as they used to be. Corps now get their marchers from all over the country, and all over the world now. Gone are the days when a town, or section of the city, had their Drum Corps that competed with another nearby town, or nearby section of the city's, Drum Corps. Much like a football rivalry game on Thanksgiving, these towns were fiercely loyal to their town, to their section of the city, to their " ' hood ". So the locally based Drum Corps reflected that ' turf " rivalry. And in Boston, with so many Drum Corps nearby, these " turf " rivalries were intense. And I mean REAL intense. Corps DIrectors often had their hands full keeping their charges out of fights with rival Corps marchers ( and in Boston's case, with any local street gangs or ruffians that wanted to give them lip ). It was a matter of survival. But times change. There are no more nearby Corps in the next town with a Drum Corps. The typical marcher in DCI is no longer just a marcher off the street with little to no musical training. He or she tends to be the disciplined boy or girl that marches in their local school's marching band. So its a all different. As for the Boston Crusaders, on the whole, the majority of older alums of Corps that were bitter rivals of BAC have grown up, are between 50-80 years old now, and have put aside those once bitter rival feelings they once had toward the Boston Crusaders when they were just teenagers, young adults. Most that still live in Greater Boston cheer on the Boston Crusaders. But there is still a rather sizeable minority of former alums of other Corps from Eastern Massachusetts that will take their bitter feelings toward the Boston Crusaders to their graves. They won't cheer for Boston Crusaders, no matter what their show is like. Its just the way it is. But on the whole, the Boston Crusaders rise above all this most years now, and most audiences in Greater Boston give the Crusaders an enthusiastic reception to their shows. Are there Corps shows that get a better hand than the Boston Crusaders, in the Boston area shows, some years ? Sure. Absolutely. But this is not that unique to Boston area shows, as lots of Corps from around the country that have their HQ locally based, find that Corps from outside that region get a better applause if they are better performed shows, more entertaining shows, when performed in competition at their local shows too. Even Phantom Regiment got a better reception to their show a few years back out in southern calif. than did the local headquartered Blue Devils did ( for just one example )... and the Blue Devils won DCI that year too. So lets not all read too much into this " local " stuff anymore, as the " local " angle has pretty much gone out the window now, now that the marchers now pretty much come from all over the country and the world now to march in each of these elite corps in DCI.

Edited July 4, 2016 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

Crown took a lot of heat on these forums in the first couple weeks of the 2013 season. The heavy use of narration and singing was a big sticking point.

And it appears they responded to the criticisms. While there is still narration and singing in DCI Drum Corps, there is far far less of this found among the elite Corps. It was not that long ago that not only was Crown heavy into Narration, but so wasn't the Cadets. Who can forget the Cadets front and center lecturer that talked throughout much of their show just a few years back? Most of the Narration and singing among the Elite Corps was a passing phase that they tried out, then discarded.

Your description of general trends here does make some sense, but not in relation to Crown specifically.

Yes, there were a number of fans in the early summer of 2013 who were turned off by Crown's fairly extensive use of narration from Philip Glass's Einstein on the Beach. To those fans, Crown's use of voice seemed to be (1) revisiting a trend that had largely passed by several years earlier (there was much less use of live voice in 2009-2012 than had been the case in previous years) and (2) weird for the sake of weird, in what a number of people took to be Crown copying BD, who in 2012 had used samples, in English, French, and German, of Dada poetry and prose.

But as those people came to understand how the voice fit, and as they appreciated the challenge the corps members faced, particularly in the very fast sung counting section; and as they recognized the great emotion of the "Everything must have an end" narrator, and as they realized that even with crazy purple pants, Crown was still performing in the way that had made them come to love the corps, they found themselves either ignoring or coming to like that particular use of voice.

Remember that "Impossible, you say?" became a catch-phrase.

Then Crown won it all. Hardly the type of result that makes a corps think, "Well, we better not do that again!"

And in 2014, they indeed opened their show with live vocals, and included prerecorded vocals (of members) at three or four points in the performance.

In that same season, they were beat by a corps that, as you note, planted a narrator front and center and was on track to take second place (against the highest-scoring corps ever) until the very end of the season. That was just two years ago.

For those reasons and others, I would say that trends in the use of voice by corps is complicated.

[BRASSO]

All corps put out very different sounds even before the different instrumentation. BD, Crown, Cadets, Cavies, etc don't sound alike in any way whatsoever. It has always been a subjective matter and the new instrumentation doesn't really change anything

I don't believe so.

At one time, a DCI brass line of 60-80, pretty much had the same instrumentation, so a brass judge was comparing and contrasting, and scoring, the brass sound quality of playing among essentially the same instrumentation. While it was a subjective endeavor ( as it always has been ), the brass judge could literally close his or her eyes , listen to the brass playing and make an intelligent and reasonable comparison of which, in their evaluation, was played " better ". The essential commonality of the brass instrumentation made it so, imo.

However, when the instrumentatiion is changed to this degree, ( some with trombones, some with french horns, some with neither, and so on and so forth, etc ), it is undeniable that the sound changes quite dramatically in the brass line. VERY dramatically. As such, if the brass judge closes his or her eyes, and listens to the units overall brass sound, now wholly and completely different now as a result of the instrumentation differences between the corps in competition, the comparison as to which of the brass sounds is " better "can no longer be made, imo . As such, the once subjective nature of judging the brass line becomes even more subjective. Subjective to the point, imo, that the evaluation now crosses from the " better " realm " into the personal realm of what the judge " likes " in musical group brass sounds. Now, of course, this is just my opinion here too.

Edited July 4, 2016 by BRASSO

[MikeRapp]

One of the best changes in Drum Corps over the years is the manner upon which most of these marchers in Corps , on the whole, respect one another off the field. Part of this is the typical marcher has changed, but a lot of it is that the Corps are not as territorial as they used to be. Corps now get their marchers from all over the country, and all over the world now. Gone are the days when a town, or section of the city, had their Drum Corps that competed with another nearby town, or nearby section of the city's, Drum Corps. Much like a football rivalry game on Thanksgiving, these towns were fiercely loyal to their town, to their section of the city, to their " ' hood ". So the locally based Drum Corps reflected that ' turf " rivalry. And in Boston, with so many Drum Corps nearby, these " turf " rivalries were intense. And I mean REAL intense. Corps DIrectors often had their hands full keeping their charges out of fights with rival Corps marchers ( and in Boston's case, with any local street gangs or ruffians that wanted to give them lip ). It was a matter of survival. But times change. There are no more nearby Corps in the next town with a Drum Corps. The typical marcher in DCI is no longer just a marcher off the street with little to no musical training. He or she tends to be the disciplined boy or girl that marches in their local school's marching band. So its a all different. As for the Boston Crusaders, on the whole, the majority of older alums of Corps that were bitter rivals of BAC have grown up, are between 50-80 years old now, and have put aside those once bitter rival feelings they once had toward the Boston Crusaders when they were just teenagers, young adults. Most that still live in Greater Boston cheer on the Boston Crusaders. But there is still a rather sizeable minority of former alums of other Corps from Eastern Massachusetts that will take their bitter feelings toward the Boston Crusaders to their graves. They won't cheer for Boston Crusaders, no matter what their show is like. Its just the way it is. But on the whole, the Boston Crusaders rise above all this most years now, and most audiences in Greater Boston give the Crusaders an enthusiastic reception to their shows. Are there Corps shows that get a better hand than the Boston Crusaders, in the Boston area shows, some years ? Sure. Absolutely. But this is not that unique to Boston area shows, as lots of Corps from around the country that have their HQ locally based, find that Corps from outside that region get a better applause if they are better performed shows, more entertaining shows, when performed in competition at their local shows too. Even Phantom Regiment got a better reception to their show a few years back out in southern calif. than did the local headquartered Blue Devils did ( for just one example )... and the Blue Devils won DCI that year too. So lets not all read too much into this " local " stuff anymore, as the " local " angle has pretty much gone out the window now, now that the marchers now pretty much come from all over the country and the world now to march in each of these elite corps in DCI.

Two more things.

First, kids move from one corps to another during their age eligibility. It's a lot harder to hold grudges against other organizations when kids can move around more, and honestly it seems as if the result of that is organizations are a lot more sensitive to the needs of the marching members,

Second, everyone who is weird enough to love this activity knows how close it came to collapse not very long ago. At least for awhile, everyone still needs everyone else to succeed and thrive. Even now, the competitive balance is not great west of the Rockies, which leads to less upward mobility among the corps and tougher ticket sales. It is so painful to see an established corps fail, no one wants that.

[THeShadeOfNight]

I don't believe so.

At one time, a DCI brass line of 60-80, pretty much had the same instrumentation, so a brass judge was comparing and contrasting, and scoring, the brass sound quality of playing among essentially the same instrumentation. While it was a subjective endeavor ( as it always has been ), the brass judge could literally close his or her eyes , listen to the brass playing and make an intelligent and reasonable comparison of which, in their evaluation, was played " better ". The essential commonality of the brass instrumentation made it so, imo.

However, when the instrumentatiion is changed to this degree, ( some with trombones, some with french horns, some with neither, and so on and so forth, etc ), it is undeniable that the sound changes quite dramatically in the brass line. VERY dramatically. As such, if the brass judge closes his or her eyes, and listens to the units overall brass sound, now wholly and completely different now as a result of the instrumentation differences between the corps in competition, the comparison as to which of the brass sounds is " better "can no longer be made, imo . As such, the once subjective nature of judging the brass line becomes even more subjective. Subjective to the point, imo, that the evaluation now crosses from the " better " realm " into the personal realm of what the judge " likes " in musical group brass sounds. Now, of course, this is just my opinion here too.

Towards the end of the year I could see that, yes. Early season I think it would be pretty easily distinguishable from the fundamentals. Who matches articulation best? Which corps has the best balance between the currently playing instruments? Is the melody always heard properly? Is there a tone change at fast tempos/low dynamics? Etc.

[MikeD]

And it appears they responded to the criticisms. While there is still narration and singing in DCI Drum Corps, there is far far less of this found among the elite Corps. It was not that long ago that not only was Crown heavy into Narration, but so wasn't the Cadets. Who can forget the Cadets front and center lecturer that talked throughout much of their show just a few years back ? Most of the Narration and singing among the Elite Corps was a passing phase that they tried out, then discarded. Now, " The Next Big Thang " in DCI Drum Corps are the " Bones ", and " the Frenchies ", as well as seeing what synthetic electronic sounds can be created out the Sound Machines. I have sympathy for the brass and music judges, as the disparate instrumentation being utilized among the various Corps creates completely different musical sounds that makes comparing which sound is " better " impossible. So now these judges will be scoring based upon what completely different sounds they personally " like " entering their ear canal. As such, they'll be all sorts of volatility of scores among the judges moving forward from here on in now, imo.

Marching band competitions have far more diversity in instrumentation, yet the judges are able to determine the ranking and rating just fine. Evaluating the instrumentation presented is the key, IMO, having judged over 150 MB competitions over time.

[corpsband]

Marching band competitions have far more diversity in instrumentation, yet the judges are able to determine the ranking and rating just fine. Evaluating the instrumentation presented is the key, IMO, having judged over 150 MB competitions over time.

Brasso knows nothing about Marching Bands and has no desire to learn a single thing. He's sticking his head in a bucket of sand.

He's already stated so publicly! (and ran from the argument forthwith!)

[BRASSO]

Marching band competitions have far more diversity in instrumentation, yet the judges are able to determine the ranking and rating just fine. Evaluating the instrumentation presented is the key, IMO, having judged over 150 MB competitions over time.

I won't comment on what the judging might be in the BOA Marching Band realm, as for all I know, their system might be flawed in this respect too.

My remarks are confined to DCI and the Brass Caption alone ( not GE Music, for example ). When we had 60-80 brass lines with essentially the same brass instruments being utilized, it was possible to compare, contrast, then score the brass lines are to which was played, quality wise " better ". However, when we change the instrumentation, to different brass instruments mixes among the Corps to be judged on " Brass " line quality, the notion that a brass judge ( as good as they might be) can tell us which was " better " in brass line playing qualities is not possible. It just isn't. The fact that a Judge, and its organization, believe that it can be done, does not mean that it can, nor even should, be done. Since the instrumentation has been changed in such a major way in these brass lines, I'd be perfectly fine if DCI simply decided now to do away with the Brass Caption altogether, and have it merged into the " GE Music " Caption, where I still believe that well trained and experienced judges DO have the evaluative skills to determine which Corps brass playing abilities have the " better " desired overall effect compared with other competitors in the show.

If DCI thought that a brass line judge can properly evaluate if a trumpet player is " better " than a trombone player, then they would have their I & E judges have to judge ( for example ) 10 brass players on 10 different brass instruments to determine who was the " best " brass player in the competition. But they would never do that, as some of these 10 brass instruments are easier to play than others, and some have range possibilities that some others in the mix do not have. Ergo, we don't ask these I & E judges to compare apples to oranges. DCI has their I & E judges compare apples to apples, by having the trumpeters compete with other trumpeters... baritones with other baritones.... trombones with other trombones, and so forth. But on the field of competition, DCI believes that that the brass judge can tell us which 80 person brass line with different instruments is " better " than another utilizing a different " weapon " altogether for their brass sound. Since the sound coming from these disparate brass instruments will be entirely different, no such " better " evaluation can be made. Its now a matter of what brass sound the brass judge likes and prefers. No more, no less.............................. For an even better example of this : A judge can effectively compare, contrast, score a competition between orchestras that are using essentially the same instruments in the orchestra, and tell us which orchestra was " better ". But can we ask the same judge to judge an outstanding Symphony Orchestra with one form of instruments, and compare and score that orchestra against an outstanding Big Band Orchestra ? Well, yes we COULD ask that judge to do the impossible. But can such a judge effectively tell us if the outstanding Big Band Orchestra was " better " or " worse " than the outstanding Symphony Orchestra ? No. It can't be done. Its impossible. The disparate instrumentation makes the task to determine which sound was " better " impossible. Such a judge, no matter his or her outstanding musical ear , training, and pedigree, can only tell us which of the sounds of the 2 competing outstanding Orchestra's that evaluation judge " likes" and " prefers " to hear. No more , no less.

Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

Even if the lines were all of identical instrumentation (and how often was that really the case? ever? didn't someone link here not too long ago to an interview with Wayne Downey, where he talks about the different instrumentation Blue Devils have used through the years, which was changing regularly through his history with that corps? not to mention that different corps might use bugles from different makers--and comments here make it clear that different brands sound different to the expert ear), the judges still had to agree on what constitutes good vs. bad playing, and that can be more subjective than you're letting on. For one tiny instance: I remembers seeing, on some PBS show, a professional French horn player demonstrating a passage from the Zoltan Kodaly's Hary Janos, and he noted that the way he played it was not at all how he had been taught it some 25 years earlier when he started on his career, and demonstrated that as well. The notes and rhythm were all the same, and yet the two versions were quite different even to a lay ear. Tastes and expectations had shifted over those years, but at some point in the interim, I would expect that half the horn players did it the old way and half did it the new way. And that's just one instrument on one piece of music! Something like that is going on all the time in many different ways in music.

Also, as regards, your statement that "The fact that a judge, and its organization, believe that it can be done, does not mean that it can, nor even should, be done", why should we trust your expertise over that of the judges?