MikeD Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I hate to complicate this, but: what if a given group using, e.g., trombones, doesn't want to create a "characteristic" trombone sound but is aiming for something different? Which of course is possible...and even likely...but if they do that they had better make sure it is obvious that they are aiming at something different, and are not just playing poorly. Cadets opening trombone statement, for instance, is quite a harsh sound, but it is very obvious that is what they are shooting for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I do consider it a " difference of opinion". is there anything wrong with this, Cappy ? I have not demanded that you adopt my position, nor demeaned you in any way for believing what you do on this. And I do not consider this a debate. I consider this more of a discussion... oh well. Nothing wrong with it at all. A debate is merely a discussion of opposing view points. Call it what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 The judges job is to rank and rate the performance being presented on the instruments being used. It is not all that difficult a concept. I don't really see the issue here that you seem to see. The concept is not new. Its WAY more difficult to do than when you and I were judging, MikeD. You make it appear that judging an 76 member brass line composed of mostly similar brass instruments is as easy as judging a 76 member brass line with very dissimilar brass instruments within that 76. Its not. The notion that its as easy to play each of the dissimilar instruments is also not the same. No matter how much you try to convince yourself that its " the same , and that the concept is " not new ", its not the case. The brass instrumentation usage IS new. As such, to utilize the " same concept " to judge them as BITD when you and I judged is flawed thinking, imo. Oh well, you have your opinion that its " not all that difficult a concept " when the concept itself has absolutely changed in the brass instrumentation. One can compare a violin playing with another's violin playing. One cannot compare one's violin playing with a trombone player's trombone playing, no matter who thinks than can determine which was played " better ". Also, if DCI thought a violin player was the same as the trombone player, they would have the I & E judges put the violin players in with the baritone players to compete with one another to determine who was " better " on their instruments. Don't hold your breathe that we'll ever see this however, as the DCI judges of today would not judge this. You and me as judges had a MUCH easier time to judge things when the things we were asked to compare and contrast were much more similar in nature.. When we shift the paradigm, a new paradigm in judging must adapt to that changed paradigm, imo. Old " concepts " no longer apply, MikeD. I hope this new " concept " makes sense a bit more for you now... now that I've explained it more fully to you. If not, and you believe that the " old concepts " equally apply today, now that the instrumentations are more dissimilar than ever before, then thats certainly still ok by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfever Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 A brass judge can judge the sound of an instrument from " different instrument manufacturers " far more easily than asking him or her to judge different instruments altogether. I recognize that ultimately a brass judge will be asked to tell us if Cadets, Crown, or Blue Devils have this seasons " best brass line ". I maintain that with the now unprecedented different utilizations of brass instruments among these 3 Corps that this evaluation as to which is the " best brass line " will be far more subjective an endeavor on the part of this brass judge than when he or she was asked to do so when the brass instruments were far more similar in nature among all the Corps. Look, if people believe that a brass judges duties are as easy as before these dissimilar brass instruments were added to the mix, I will accept that. But please allow me to believe that when we change the brass instruments mix in a major, major way among the competing Corps, we are making the decision making on the part of the brass judge far more subjective forthan when he or she was not previously required to determine " better " and " the best " brass lines when the brass lines instrumentation utilized was far more similar in nature than it is now. For example, the brass line sound of Cadets, Crown, Blue Coats this season is unlike any other top 3 brass line Corps we can think of, in any other season. We are not comparing the early 90's Star of Indiana's brass line with that of the early 90's Blue Devils brass line here. The brass line judges could effectively compare and contrast, score that... although it was subjective then too, of course. But the brass instrumentation for the brass line " better " determination distinction was present. If BD wins the brass line award this August however, did Crown make a mistake in not utilizing the trombone sound as much as BD did ? One would have to think so. Or we could ask ourselves if Cadets win the high brass award, if BD's and Crown's decisions not to utilize so much of the french horns might have been their mistake. These were NOT the questions we had to ask ourselves before. But at the end of this season, people will be asking themselves these questions ( especially within the corps themselves ). This is because whoever wins this years High Brass Award will be utilizing a brass instrumentation mix that will be very.., VERY... unlike the also rans in the Brass Caption award determination as to what Corps had " the best " brass line in DCI this year. Anyway, its something for us to think about anyway, for those that like to ponder this stuff. I enjoyed your post. I would say, though, the different voices in the brass line would pose no more challenges than a percussion judge faces. There have not been limits on percussion "voices". It's really not any different. I think we need to continue to place value on the musianship of brass. For most fans, it's the brass line which brings folks to their feet. GE? Yes. But, you can't have GE without that great horn line at base of it all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) your position appears to be that the brass judges can't be doing what they appear to be doing--that they've been given an impossible assignment. If that were so, I'm surprised they haven't rebelled. I have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, nor what level of support ( or frustration ) judges might have with any of this. If judges didn't make a stink when DCI implemented the new policy of withdrawal of the availability of recaps to the judges... and on the official DCI press release given reason of..... " to limit the potential for judge bias ", then I would imagine these DCI judges wouldn't go public with a " rebellion " on this either. Just imagine the DCI judges reaction when they were collectively told as a group : " look, you just might have judge bias " and" one of the things we are going to do about it is to punitively disallow you to have access to recaps that you've had at your disposal as judges since 1972 " . Whoa, if thats not a slap at the current DCI judges, then what is ? BUT.. did we hear any public Judges " rebellion " on this ? No. But common sense should tell us that no self respecting DCI judge could possibly be privately liking this new policy implementation imposed upon them with this either.... nor the explanation given by DCI for the need for its implementation as well. Edited July 5, 2016 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) Its WAY more difficult to do than when you and I were judging, MikeD. You make it appear that judging an 76 member brass line composed of mostly similar brass instruments is as easy as judging a 76 member brass line with very dissimilar brass instruments within that 76. Its not. The notion that its as easy to play each of the dissimilar instruments is also not the same. No matter how much you try to convince yourself that its " the same , and that the concept is " not new ", its not the case. The brass instrumentation usage IS new. As such, to utilize the " same concept " to judge them as BITD when you and I judged is flawed thinking, imo. Oh well, you have your opinion that its " not all that difficult a concept " when the concept itself has absolutely changed in the brass instrumentation. One can compare a violin playing with another's violin playing. One cannot compare one's violin playing with a trombone player's trombone playing, no matter who thinks than can determine which was played " better ". Also, if DCI thought a violin player was the same as the trombone player, they would have the I & E judges put the violin players in with the baritone players to compete with one another to determine who was " better " on their instruments. Don't hold your breathe that we'll ever see this however, as the DCI judges of today would not judge this. You and me as judges had a MUCH easier time to judge things when the things we were asked to compare and contrast were much more similar in nature.. When we shift the paradigm, a new paradigm in judging must adapt to that changed paradigm, imo. Old " concepts " no longer apply, MikeD. I hope this new " concept " makes sense a bit more for you now... now that I've explained it more fully to you. If not, and you believe that the " old concepts " equally apply today, now that the instrumentations are more dissimilar than ever before, then thats certainly still ok by me. Sorry, I still disagree. But that is OK. I've evaluated all sorts of ensembles using all sorts of instrumentation in my time, and it is just not the impossibility you make it out to be. If a band is using clarinets, I had better hear them...and in balance with the rest of the ensemble. If a band chose to not use clarinets, then I would be evaluating the sound based on the set of instruments they are using. I would not be looking to see and hear clarinets if there were none on the field. You approach judging based on what is presented, and how it is being presented. It is not 'old concepts'...it is how music judging works. Edited July 5, 2016 by MikeD 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Dixon Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 More instruments to judge including amplified and reverb ones does make it more complex. Especially with the great range of techniques these days More variables makes it more complex. Simple math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 More instruments to judge including amplified and reverb ones does make it more complex. Especially with the great range of techniques these days More variables makes it more complex. Simple math. Oh, more complex for sure. But not an impossible task...and it is nothing new for these judges who have been judging corps and bands for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 "Trailer for sale or rent..." LOL " rooms to let, 50 cents ".... ( some here don't know who the hell Roger Miller was... they're probably fortunate with that, Fran.. who knows.. haha! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajlemm Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 " rooms to let, 50 cents ".... ( some here don't know who the hell Roger Miller was... they're probably fortunate with that, Fran.. who knows.. haha! )Chug a Lug, Chug a Lug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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