Different winners without GE

[ouooga]

This is a repost from Reddit, but seemed like something worth discussing on these boards. Not my post, I didn't run the stats so don't kill me if there's something inaccurate.

 

Quote

After noticing that General Effect is what won the Bluecoats their first victory last year, I was curious to see what would happen if you eliminated that category throughout the years and just grade the corps on the more "technical" components of their performances. Let me be clear: I'm very happy with the system as it is and am not trying to argue against GE at all. I just like statistics a lot and wanted to share. Here's what I found out! Spoiler alert: It's BD like almost every time. (The actual winners are in parentheses)

2016 - Blue Devils (Bluecoats)

2013 - Blue Devils (Carolina Crown)

2011 - Blue Devils (Cadets)

2004 - Blue Devils (Cavaliers)

2001 - Blue Devils (Cavaliers)

2000 - Cadets (no tie w/ Cavaliers)

1999 - Blue Devils (no tie w/ Vanguard)

1996 - Blue Devils (no tie w/ Phantom Regiment)

1993 - Star of Indiana (Cadets)

1984 - Blue Devils (Cadets)

1979 - Phantom Regiment (Vanguard)

1978 - Phantom Regiment (Blue Devils)

 

[xandandl]

3 hours ago, ouooga said:

This is a repost from Reddit, but seemed like something worth discussing on these boards. Not my post, I didn't run the stats so don't kill me if there's something inaccurate.

 

 

The emphasis on technical merit/execution/proficiency vs. General effect emphasis is the old argument of the '60's which was better, the American Legion sheets or the VFW scoring sheets? DCI was supposed to cure this divide by combining both equally as it eventually led but has strayed from in more recent Rules Congresses. I guess the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited February 28, 2017 by xandandl

[BRASSO]

  In the pre DCI years, while the AL and VFW had somewhat different judging systems ( had more in common, than differences, actually ), they both defined " General Effect " quite differently than how DCI would define it right from the beginning. In the pre DCI years, how a show connected to the audience was critically important to the GE score. To this degree then, the GE caption was always a build up caption.  Yes, audiences could be skewed to who attended the shows, but this was not much of an issue, as the local circuit shows had equal numbers of Corps fans in most shows, and the National Championships were generally held in cities where more than half the audience were Vets and families... with no biases toward any particular Corps to any large degree. They were in attendance principally to honor Veterans, and support their causes, and take in the Championships as an enjoyable musical competition watching diversion. When the Corps broke away from the AL and VFW and formed DCI in 1972, the General effect caption was solely written by DCI Judge George Oliviero ( about 30 years old at the time ). George wrote the General Effect caption that specifically said that how the show effected HIM or his fellow GE judges would be the sole determinative as to the shows quality of its overall " General Effect ". George said he could not determine a shows effect on others, nor was he sure a show's GE should even be gauged on the audience response. So GE was changed as a definition by DCI itself for the 1st time in Drum Corps competition.  George's written GE caption was submitted to DCI as a proposal, ( 1973? ) and was adopted unanimously by the Corps. Over the years, the GE caption has been split into subcaptions, and there is some small accommodation made to " audiences ", but its mostly token in nature., Bottom line... audiences and their response to shows  have little to no effect on the GE scores. ( nor any other captions for that matter )

Edited February 28, 2017 by BRASSO

[BoaDci]

This is a great idea.  BD almost always gets killed in ge.

[IllianaLancerContra]

1 hour ago, ouooga said:

BD won in79, not SCV (3rd)

 

 

 

[MikeD]

38 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

  In the pre DCI years, while the AL and VFW had somewhat different judging systems ( had more in common, than differences, actually ), they both defined " General Effect " quite differently than how DCI would define it right from the beginning. In the pre DCI years, how a show connected to the audience was critically important to the GE score. To this degree then, the GE caption was always a build up caption.  Yes, audiences could be skewed to who attended the shows, but this was not much of an issue, as the local circuit shows had equal numbers of Corps fans in most shows, and the National Championships were generally held in cities where more than half the audience were Vets and families... with no biases toward any particular Corps to any large degree. They were in attendance principally to honor Veterans, and support their causes, and take in the Championships as an enjoyable musical competition watching diversion. When the Corps broke away from the AL and VFW and formed DCI in 1972, the General effect caption was solely written by DCI Judge George Oliviero ( about 30 years old at the time ). George wrote the General Effect caption that specifically said that how the show effected HIM or his fellow GE judges would be the sole determinative as to the shows quality of its overall " General Effect ". George said he could not determine a shows effect on others, nor was he sure a show's GE should even be gauged on the audience response. So GE was changed as a definition by DCI itself for the 1st time in Drum Corps competition.  George's written GE caption was submitted to DCI as a proposal, ( 1973? ) and was adopted unanimously by the Corps. Over the years, the GE caption has been split into subcaptions, and there is some small accommodation made to " audiences ", but its mostly token in nature., Bottom line... audiences and their response to shows  have little to no effect on the GE scores. ( nor any other captions for that matter )

In 1971, just prior to DCI, the VFW gave GE 10 points, the same as was allotted to Cadence and Inspection. Marching was 30 points, and both Brass and Drums were 20 each.

 

 

[afd]

1 hour ago, BoaDci said:

This is a great idea.  BD almost always gets killed in ge.

Not really killed since they have WON DCI 17 times. Most minus maybe 1 or 2 not winning GE. It just shows their strength in all captions. There is no weakness. Even if they are 4th in percussion other captions make up for it. I think the Bluecoats see this and they are also strong in each captions.

[BoaDci]

1 minute ago, afd said:

Not really killed since they have WON DCI 17 times. Most minus maybe 1 or 2 not winning GE. It just shows their strength in all captions. There is no weakness. Even if they are 4th in percussion other captions make up for it. I think the Bluecoats see this and they are also strong in each captions.

Yeah, not necessarily KILLED in GE, but it has definitely been their achilles heel some years.

[afd]

3 minutes ago, BoaDci said:

Yeah, not necessarily KILLED in GE, but it has definitely been their achilles heel some years.

Really. I would think most corps would love to be in a position of 6 golds and 4 silvers. And yes they didn't win GE when taking the silver. The 6 golds....GE winner except in 2015 (2nd in GE) plus a score of 40 in 2014. Who else is even close in winning GE in the past 10 years?

[N.E. Brigand]

2 hours ago, BRASSO said:

 In the pre-DCI years, while the AL and VFW had somewhat different judging systems (with more in common than differences, actually), they both defined "General Effect" quite differently than how DCI would define it right from the beginning. In the pre-DCI years, how a show connected to the audience was critically important to the GE score. To this degree then, the GE caption was always a build-up caption. . .

When the corps broke away from the AL and VFW and formed DCI in 1972, the General effect caption was solely written by DCI judge, George Oliviero (about 30 years old at the time). George wrote the General Effect caption that specifically said that how the show effected HIM or his fellow G.E. judges would be the sole determinant as to the shows' quality of its overall "General Effect". George said he could not determine a show's effect on others, nor was he sure a show's G.E. should even be gauged on the audience response. So G.E. was changed as a definition by DCI itself for the 1st time in Drum Corps competition. George's written G.E. caption was submitted to DCI as a proposal (1973?) and was adopted unanimously by the corps. Over the years, the G.E. caption has been split into sub-captions, and there is some small accommodation made to " audiences ", but its mostly token in nature. Bottom line: [in DCI,] audiences and their response to shows have little to no effect on the GE scores (or any other captions, for that matter).

Your comments are puzzling in light of the claim in the original post that Blue Devils, whose shows are generally understood to be less audience-friendly than those of other corps, have lost six championships because they didn't score high enough in G.E.

Edited February 28, 2017 by N.E. Brigand