Drums Across Kansas - El Dorado, KS - July 17

[BigBird]

2 minutes ago, mboogey73 said:

GE is inherently subjective, no matter how much they try to objectify it. Different people/judges see different things. 

Would love to see part of the GE score be a crowd reaction score. It would be great for DCI. It would force designers to create shows that audiences enjoy more, no? (not saying BD's show isn't entertaining, the crowd loves them! Especially that intro!)

I like this idea but it wouldn't work because people are going to be inherently biased to whoever theyre supporting. Not to mention the fact that depending where the meter is placed, it'd mostly be picking up a small part of the stands instead of all of the stands.

posted from the DrumScorps app

[MikeRapp]

18 minutes ago, BigBird said:

I like this idea but it wouldn't work because people are going to be inherently biased to whoever theyre supporting. Not to mention the fact that depending where the meter is placed, it'd mostly be picking up a small part of the stands instead of all of the stands.

posted from the DrumScorps app

Crowd reaction vs crowd vote are two separate ideas. With everyone in the stands holding an iPhone, you could do audience interactive feedback with a login. No doubt this has been discussed, and I realize that's a big fish to fry, but the tv talent shows have figured out how to do it.

[jwillis35]

When it comes to judging general effect, I do think experienced adjudicators understand how to interpret the crowd's natural reactions to a show vs. just rooting for their favorite no matter what is being performed on the field. 

If the show is in Massillon (for instance) the Bluecoats could do something simple and just elicit a huge audience response. Another corps could do a similar thing and get nothing for it, maybe polite golf claps. So judges cannot judge GE from a pure "who the audience likes more" perspective.  However, I do know that they gauge the audience response to a show, and not just applause or cheering, but oohs and ahhs, wow moments, perhaps even moments that make the audience question something or feel uncomfortable before reeling them in with something great. 

GE is best explained as "A Broad Look at One's Show."  It used to be shows were judged via GE Music and GE Visual.  

GE Music is total construction of music, how the combined pit, battery, and brass come together as a whole, how it's being interpreted by the corps, how it's paired up with the visual, does it contain the phrasing and impact moments to keep the showing moving fluidly and coherently, and is the music reaching the audience in terms of meaning, impact, clarity, etc. 

GE Visual is a look at the total construction and combined effect of all visual elements (drill, types of marching moves, staging, acting, characterizations, guard integration, etc.).  GE Visual also looks at how those visual elements are paired with the music and whether they make sense.  

I am summarizing here, and these days they no longer use the terms GE Music, GE Visual.  Now we get GE 1, GE 2, but I believe the two GE judges do a little of both and then the combined score is averaged out.  I personally wish they would go back to GE Music and GE Visual. I believe there are big difference in the two and each has a lot to judge. 

[Cappybara]

9 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

Crowd reaction vs crowd vote are two separate ideas. With everyone in the stands holding an iPhone, you could do audience interactive feedback with a login. No doubt this has been discussed, and I realize that's a big fish to fry, but the tv talent shows have figured out how to do it.

Again. This is simply the dumbest idea ever. Do audiences remain the same from stadium to stadium? Same demographics? What if championships moved around to Cali or Carolina? Lots of biased votes/reactions will be coming in. Things like America's Got Talent are popularity contests, that's what DCI would become

why make an already subjective activity even more subjective? 

[MikeRapp]

8 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Again. This is simply the dumbest idea ever. Do audiences remain the same from stadium to stadium? Same demographics? What if championships moved around to Cali or Carolina? Lots of biased votes/reactions will be coming in. Things like America's Got Talent are popularity contests, that's what DCI would become

why make an already subjective activity even more subjective? 

Yeah, I get it. I'm not advocating it.

 We can all look down our noses at audience voting. I worked in the music business for decades, I understand the issues. I never watch any of those tv talent shows. Their goofball shows to me. But millions of people vote. And it works, obviously.

The unique technical aspects of drum corps are critical and paramount. It cant ever become a popularity contest.

[jwillis35]

Another thing I will say about GE is that it's a perfect marriage of musical and visual elements.  Years ago I used to hear fans say to me "hey, you should hear corps X brass in the lot. WOW!".  Others would say "corps X field percussion is unreal, and their pit is doing some crazy stuff."  But then I would see the corps on the field where those elements of pit, battery, and brass have to come together as one. I think we all know that you can listen to these elements separately in the lot and think man, that's some seriously good stuff.  But there have been plenty of times, and this happens every year, when you put these elements together on the field and it simply does not coordinate. It doesn't flow well, the impacts are not clean and clear, the definition how these elements should coordinate is blurred, and musical and visual phrasing is weak.  This is GE. 

I've seen plenty of corps over the years who have standout brass lines, solid pits, and some fabulous field percussion, but when combined on the field the total effect is crap. In early season this is probably one of the most common things the judges look for. Coordination of all the elements, and that include the visual elements I mentioned in my post above. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by jwillis35

[cowtown]

12 hours ago, superOOk said:

Crowd went NUTS for BD's opening drill!

I love their opener

[MikeRapp]

Totally agree with what you are saying here. This is a unique idiom. That's what makes it so hard to do well.

i think the question is, should esoteric shows receive high GE marks, even if the crowd doesn't get it...whatever it may be. To me, the effect part of general effect is what matters here. Does the show make sense, does it flow, is there one take away that works, these are all show design ideas. But does it actually work? Do people get it, and by people I don't mean judges who are hearing and seeing details no one in the stands could ever see or hear?

There are many who would say, hell yes, esoteric shows should be just as valid as mainstream shows. But I think the successful move of dci has happened largely because it has decided to care more about connecting with the audience. Moving away from pure expositions of technical expertise.

Carolina Crown imho became a powerhouse by saying, we will be technically perfect and be get-able by a band member who will never have the talent to march dci. I think Crown's success, particularly in scoring, has had a big impact on the type of shows all the world class corps now do. Just look at Blue Devils. Look at their show themes now. They are playing a complete song this year, in a full on jazz band arrangement, and it is the highlight of their show. The Tempest show, while the subject may be esoteric, was pure Carolina Crown story telling. A massive difference from ReWrite of Spring. In my view, one of the greatest drum corps shows ever put on the field.

Bluecoats have become a powerhouse largely because they said, we will dominate GE and do it by not sacrificing technical skills. They may not have completely succeeded at that, no doubt other top corps are in fact technically better than them in some captions. But look at the crowd reaction and tell me, is Bluecoats esoteric? I would say they are pure entertainment.

so for me, and that's all it is, I want corps to be technically awesome. But I want them to be fun to watch. I don't want to pay to see a pure technical exposition. I don't think Velvet Knights should score #### in GE just because they get huge ovations and crowd reaction. But I do think a judge should think twice about scoring one corps over another when the second corps brings the house down.

[Cappybara]

Personally I disagree, if only to preserve some sort of objectivity. Judges should feel free to score an esoteric show over a more mainstream one if the esoteric show has a more cohesively presented concept. Even if a lot of the audience isn't getting it (which is exactly the definition of esoteric). And of course, GE is only one part of the scoring, there is still visual and music that has to be taken into account 

[FTNK]

16 minutes ago, MikeRapp said:

Carolina Crown imho became a powerhouse by saying, we will be technically perfect and be get-able by a band member who will never have the talent to march dci. I think Crown's success, particularly in scoring, has had a big impact on the type of shows all the world class corps now do. Just look at Blue Devils. Look at their show themes now. They are playing a complete song this year, in a full on jazz band arrangement, and it is the highlight of their show. The Tempest show, while the subject may be esoteric, was pure Carolina Crown story telling. A massive difference from ReWrite of Spring. In my view, one of the greatest drum corps shows ever put on the field.

I think Cesario's push for more accessible and "entertaining" shows (which I have derided as a "Zhdanov decree") is a big factor as well. On the whole I think it has significantly "dumbed down" show design