Enough Judging Conspiracy Theories

[garfield]

Now, did you see the guy judging field brass on Saturday night?  He spent his first years "trialing" by sitting next to me in the stands.  I literally rubbed shoulders with him and watched him work.  Now, he's a college director and Saturday night DCI judge.  He also judged our show on two occasions.  Was fun to talk with him and see him in our box three rows up.  We pointed at each other:  "Hey!".  

I have a direct family member who is a USBands judge and is now trialing in DCI.  I've been around a while and I've read the sheets.  I agree that the whole, dang thing is incestuous, and that DCI should be run by an outside BoDs!  But, so what!  I thought it'd ben settled that they, the member corps, can write the rules for their little band thing and fans will buy it as legit.  

Maybe I'm not as sensitive to the feelings of those who think there's a conspiracy and judging is unfair and wrong every single year.  Maybe I should be...

 

[garfield]

12 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Really?  Why haven't we spoken up a long time ago?  Years ago?  That's the question.

No, really, I'd like to know what prompted you to speak up now.

And again, I'm just curious.

 

[DeusExGreenMachina]

3 minutes ago, garfield said:

I agree that the whole, dang thing is incestuous, and that DCI should be run by an outside BoDs!  But, so what!  I thought it'd ben settled that they, the member corps, can write the rules for their little band thing and fans will buy it as legit.  

Maybe I'm not as sensitive to the feelings of those who think there's a conspiracy and judging is unfair and wrong every single year.  Maybe I should be...

 

Those who enforce the rules, govern and create the rules.  You get high enough in our ranks, you'll be changing the sheets.

I know that may sound a little dark, but the sheets are increasingly becoming more vague and open to more subjectivity and, dare I say it, manipulation.  It's important that we keep good people in the activity making these decisions.

6 minutes ago, garfield said:

Now, did you see the guy judging field brass on Saturday night?  He spent his first years "trialing" by sitting next to me in the stands.  I literally rubbed shoulders with him and watched him work.  Now, he's a college director and Saturday night DCI judge.

 

Well look at you mister @garfield!  Do you still keep in touch?

[George Dixon]

18 hours ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

 

Thanks for considering reading this wall of text.

tl;dr No there are no conspiracies.  There is virtually no herd mentality on the national level.  Money nor reputation matters.  Become a judge if you aren't already.  Also--thank you if you're a fan of any of the pageantry activities.

Not meant to be a dissertation, but a reflection of my many years of experience as a judge on the field and indoor.  No I am not a DCI judge but I have been judging with DCI, WGI, and BOA national judges and have had many discussions with said men and women who are actively making these tough decisions.  There appear to be several of us on here willing to share information so any input is very much appreciated.  I am not speaking for every judge or even any group of judges but SPECIFICALLY to my experience.

I'll be available for follow-up questions and concerns for a few days until this account and thread dies--if that's the case.

-------------

1) Herd Mentality

Does not exist barring very few situations*.  We judge the sheets.  Particular to our caption, a unit can hit the sheets according to our eyeballs and our ears or it cannot.  Sometimes there are difficult decisions that we have to make on the spot.  We all see different things even within the same caption.  Some judges are good enough to judge multiple captions.  Ranks and ratings change for the same judge because they're judging a new caption.  Also, when panels change, numbers will change as you have probably experienced in the past.  It's absolutely unavoidable.  Please also remember that there are separate numbers in what we see the designers intended to do and what the performers executed on that particular day/evening; i.e. vocabulary vs. excellence.  It's the LEFT side and the RIGHT side respectively.  It's not rocket science.  We all have to trial judge for this and prove we can focus on our own caption and defend our numbers at critique and thereafter.

*Note: Interestingly enough, every few shows a newer judge or trial judge will ask where I put a unit at any given point.  I give them the neighborhood, e.g. high box 3, mid box 4, etc. but I'm very averse to providing an actual number as is anyone I have spoken with.  Remember that we have fans only a few feet away from us in virtually every direction that can hear our conversations and are probably recording us on their smartphones.  Why would we be idiots and mimic each other's scores?  That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  These days we can typically change our numbers for all units at the end of a round due to the mechanics of Competition Suite.  It's a magical thing and it makes numbers management so much easier and more equitable.

2) Money

We get a few hundred bucks or maybe a little more.  It's not much.  Expenses are paid if we are lucky. Rumors have it that nationals is just about the same or a little bit more but not much. This is a NON PROFIT activity.  Enough said.  We mostly do this because we think we can do it better than others and provide better input.  We're not in this for the money--heck, we may be better off bartending for an evening.  We do get the best view in the venue.  That's why I do it--along with providing input to groups who actually give a **** as to improving their units.  Most of us want the activity to grow and performers to get better; however, some judges are jerks who just want to criticize and call out things that are wrong because the units are not doing what they did 5, 10, or 50 years ago.  It oftentimes gets tiresome in the judge's room and occasionally pisses me off.  That's the main frustration I've had.  We tend to argue when I encounter a judge who made a number I sorely disagreed with in a caption I've judged; there's a 50/50 chance I'll win and they'll rethink their numbers next time around if they're given the opportunity.  We're otherwise complaining as to why we got a baked potato for a "meal."

3) Reputation

This gets a little complicated.  Many judges have obligations outside of judging.  For example, several have contracts with percussion, winter guards, winds, marching bands, drill design, you name it.  However, from my experience, it really doesn't matter.  Our reputation is founded on the basis that we put down a number, record our commentary, and defend every ounce of it.  We sometimes get stuck with a number we put down during an earlier part of the season and have to really back up any changes later in the season.  As long as we reflect our APPROPRIATE number based on the sheet of our particular caption during that specific performance, it doesn't matter if we give 3rd place to a 12th place unit or vice versa.  I've done it many times, "called" many shows, and still get asked to judge again.  Judge's commentary is becoming more and more public, so I make sure to talk about the stuff I want my dear mother to hear as well as the unit staff and most importantly the performing members.  When I hear from either the Chief Judge or a director that they played my commentary to their students, it means the world to me.  Knowing they sacrificed several minutes of their valuable rehearsal time to listen to my exhausted hoarse voice makes my day.

4) Critique

Sometimes a show will have a requirement for the judges to participate in critique sessions with the units.  We may also get emails, phone calls, or texts about why a unit was ranked and rated as they were.  This can get stressful.  This is why we take notes.  I keep my notes for at least 3 years.  Every show is different.  Some times I'll place a unit higher than another, and I take notes as to why (even though it's inappropriate to talk about other units during critique).  Focus on your own show on your own caption and unit I always say.  However, it's good for me to back up to the Chief Judge why I flip-flopped or made an uncanny or unpopular choice.  I do it all the time.  Most times people get it--they watch their competitors and see why they have fallen (or risen) in my particular caption.  Critique allows us to gather input from the units and provide feedback beyond our recorded commentary.  Heck I've unintentionally made a former colleague cry during critique.  I've also had a situation when we had to get the Chief Judge to kick out an overdramatic irate director during critique.  What really pisses us off is when someone only rants about their score without having listened to the commentary.  All I can reference is my notes at that point.  The commentary is not a part of my records but a part of yours.  Do your homework. Listen to the commentary.

5) State of the Activity

Plan on being angered!  Many current judges should consider retiring.  The activity has changed considerably in the past decade--let alone the past several decades--and corps art is not being recognized properly.  The newer judges, about a third of any panel; if we're lucky, have still been removed from the activity for a decade or more.  Yes, this is a traditional activity and that I quite understand.  

Furthermore, most design and tech staff who have been a part of the top competing units are of a separate generation with separate visions working alongside older generations with progressive acuities.  There's a lot of subjectivity with the sheets and what is put on the field or floor.  A few older judges see this.  Most, however, don't.  This is, in my honest opinion, the main disconnect between the overall numbers and what the fans want to see rewarded.  So where is the activity heading?  Which leads me to this:

6) Next Steps

Trial judge.  Regardless of your age.  We need more judges.  Many of you are analytical critical jerks and we really could use your help.  Whether it's percussion, guard, winds, visual, brass, whatever.  We need new blood in every activity.  Please consider contacting a local circuit and start trialing.  Before you know it, you may be judging state and regional championships and knocking on DCI, BOA, or WGI's doors.  Just show up.  That's half the battle.  You're not running for office--you're helping develop youth and art.  We just need new people with deductive mindsets willing to put in their experience and research to current events on the field and the floor.  We're no better than you.  The activity is changing too fast for most of us.

Regardless, please stay a supporting member or fan of the marching & pageantry arts no matter what.  The common sports have enough fans.  Show up to all sorts of our musical and "artsy" competitions just because, well, reasons.

Thank you.

Edit: Changed title of thread.

I hate the ageism. Age and experience is a good thing.

so is fresh perspective so I do agree new judges are needed to rotate in and out

 

[DeusExGreenMachina]

9 minutes ago, garfield said:

No, really, I'd like to know what prompted you to speak up now.

And again, I'm just curious.

 

Honestly I cannot provide much input.  

I guess it just boils down to this:

I've been wanting to say this to many people for a long time.  I have said these things to people one-on-one for many seasons.  Been a DCP lurker for many years, reading insults about my groups and about judging, and wanted to just throw out my thoughts.  Terribly sorry if I wreaked havoc.

Edited August 20, 2017 by DeusExGreenMachina

[DeusExGreenMachina]

1 minute ago, George Dixon said:

I hate the ageism. Age and experience is a good thing.

so is fresh perspective so I do agree new judges are needed to rotate in and out

 

There are many good judges who have been involved in the activity for a long time.  There are also many bad judges who have been involved and cause many problems with the units and fans.

Please trial judge, regardless of age.  We need new people.

[George Dixon]

Just now, DeusExGreenMachina said:

There are many good judges who have been involved in the activity for a long time.  There are also many bad judges who have been involved and cause many problems with the units and fans.

Please trial judge, regardless of age.  We need new people.

Agreed. There is a consistent theme these days (not just in regards to DCI) to degenerate or discount opinions of folks over say 30s or 40s. We need a variety of opinions and yes, sometimes things run the course and it is time for fresh perspectives 

[garfield]

24 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

It's a, forgive me for saying, incestuous, activity.  There's no way around it.  It is in many ways very self governing.  Judges get called out when their colleagues see such things.

I've seen it happen.  It's not pretty.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be insulting.  Really.  But, you've contended to be a lurker for a long time here.  That would suggest that you've actually been reading posts here.  

You make statements here that nearly anyone reading these threads would know are subjects that are not news, not profound, salacious, or implicating at all.  The incestuous nature of the activity has been hammered to seven dead horses here.  "Self-Governing"?  Really?  How many gazzillions of times has the phrase been uttered "DCI <IS> THE CORPS!"  What year was it - was it Crown '13? - when the Friday night percussion judge got nearly tarred and feathered for being "out of bounds" on his scoring?

We've lived these events, we had these discussions, we're still hammering such a contentious subject as judging but none of it alludes that there's a raging anger at conspiracies. 

One of the things that keeps DCP out of the target is that most of the people here can spot a tin-foil salesman a mile away. They come and they go.  Trolls who flash in, create a stir, then quietly exit or lose interest.  I'm not suggesting you are one of those; only that seasoned DCPers are a cynical lot.

I know first hand that there are powers out there that would love to shut DCP down for good, and planting more "fake news" that DCPers are conspiracy nuts as the rationale, among other things.  It pays that we are a cynical lot.

 

[DeusExGreenMachina]

1 minute ago, garfield said:

none of it alludes that there's a raging anger at conspiracies.

There is enough for me to prompt my original post.  I also changed the title of my post, per your request, over a brew.  Cheers.

2 minutes ago, garfield said:

We've lived these events, we had these discussions, we're still hammering such a contentious subject as judging

I have as well.  Just not here.  I apologize if you believe this is the inappropriate forum but your discourse is very valuable.

3 minutes ago, garfield said:

One of the things that keeps DCP out of the target is that most of the people here can spot a tin-foil salesman a mile away. They come and they go.  Trolls who flash in, create a stir, then quietly exit or lose interest.

Target of what?  I'm confused.  People on here have spewed all sorts of nonsense and still persist.

5 minutes ago, garfield said:

I'm not suggesting you are one of those; only that seasoned DCPers are a cynical lot.

Well aware.  I've read your posts.  For a long time.  Think of me as you please; troll, newbie, veteran, lurkmeister, it really doesn't matter.  My original post says that I openly acknowledge that this account and thread might die.

I just want a good discussion.

[garfield]

17 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Those who enforce the rules, govern and create the rules.  You get high enough in our ranks, you'll be changing the sheets.

I know that may sound a little dark, but the sheets are increasingly becoming more vague and open to more subjectivity and, dare I say it, manipulation.  It's important that we keep good people in the activity making these decisions.

Well look at you mister @garfield!  Do you still keep in touch?

 

11 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

Honestly I cannot provide much input.  

I guess it just boils down to this:

I've been wanting to say this to many people for a long time.  I have said these things to people one-on-one for many seasons.  Been a DCP lurker for many years, reading insults about my groups and about judging, and wanted to just throw out my thoughts.  Terribly sorry if I wreaked havoc.

 

9 minutes ago, DeusExGreenMachina said:

There are many good judges who have been involved in the activity for a long time.  There are also many bad judges who have been involved and cause many problems with the units and fans.

Please trial judge, regardless of age.  We need new people.

I wonder, are we beginning to see your motive in popping up, gopher-like, into DCP?  You have thin skin?  You state the obvious that we should keep "good" people, as if you know and can identify the "bad" people.  Then you want MORE people but, unfortunately, don't give us any direction on what the GOOD people are supposed to look like.  You?  So this is a self-serving post?

Look, I don't disagree that the activity can always use a fresh perspective.  So did Julius Caesar.  But you are beginning to sound like a person with a grudge, a motivation beyond purely new thought and more of "correct" thought.

Another judging conspiracy?  Yours?